National Parks Carry Question

[jfisch]

So I know that as of February 22, 2010, federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in National Parks, Monuments, Lakeshores, etc. I was just wondering if anyone has any advice/experience/anecdotes about carrying in a N.P.? I will be visiting Yellowstone in September and as my Indiana permit is recognized there I planned on carrying in the park. I know I can open carry in Wyoming but I was wondering if it would just be a better idea to CC in the park?
Anyway, let me know what you guys think.
Thanks!

 

[JDM]

I've since moved "Back East," but for thirty years I carried illegally in Yellowstone and virtually every other park in the Western US. I know I could have gotten into serious trouble, but it was a decision I made and was prepared to live with the consequences. I think what you carry and how really depends on what you're planning to do, car camping, RV, day hike?
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In Yellowstone, Grand Teton and Glacier, I was into serious back country backpacking with permits. If you intend to go into the wilderness areas, bring something with enough punch to make a difference. I carried my Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Long Colt wrapped in a folded towel in a narrow, zippered gear pouch that I attached vertically to the left front strap of my pack. I never had to discharge the weapon in all those years, but I drew it several times when we were confronted by bears and moose, stalked by a large cat and during a surreal encounter with a lone bison that we came upon on a trail in the heavy forest (that was a strange one, indeed.) Interaction with rangers was/is infrequent in the back country, and we would usually see maybe one per day riding on horseback. In the visitor areas, I don't think you can legally carry in any of the buildings even with the law changes, so you might be taking it on and off quite a bit.
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I was mostly concerned with four-legged predators, but it seems like the two-legged variety are popping up everywhere these days. Good luck, be safe and have a great time. It truly is one of the most beautiful places in America.

 

[RonM0710]

Just remember it is still illegal to carry in federal buildings even in national parks. For that reason, carrying concealed lessens your chances of arrest if you forget to store your weapon before going into a building.

 

[jfisch]

I'll be carrying my Ruger SR40c and while I won't be going into deep backcountry I may do at least one long day hike to just see how far out I can get. I'm sure .40 cal isn't the best option for stopping a bear but I'll carry my 15 rd mag with one in the pipe and my 9 rd as back-up. If anything the noise might be enough for some animals.
I know about the buildings and that can be kind of a pain. Because they're technically Federal buildings you're not supposed to carry in them. They're supposed to be clearly marked though so I'm not sure if they're not if that means I'm ok?
Thanks for the advice though!

 

[RonM0710]

It is federal law. They do not need to be marked, but most are. That is why I always carry concealed.

 

[Pir8fan]

I carry in Great Smoky Mountains and the Blue Ridge Parkway all the time. I always CC unless I'm backpacking, then I OC. I too have always at least CC'd when backpacking in national parks just like JDM. The bears in our mountains are fairly accustomed to seeing people which means they don't readily run away. I always figured I'd carry because I believed my chances were better with the law than with a bear.

 

[jfisch]

Well I found this: Laws & Policies - Yellowstone National Park
A few notable quotes:
"Federal law also prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park (such as visitor centers, government offices, etc.); those places are marked with signs at all public entrances."
"Hunting and discharge of firearms remain prohibited in Yellowstone National Park."
"Firearms should not be considered a wildlife protection strategy. Bear spray and other safety precautions are the proven methods for preventing bear and other wildlife interactions."

I wonder if discharging as a means of protecting one's person, property and loved ones is ok? I would think so but I'd hate to see someone defend themselves and get a fine for discharge or a weapon.

 

[jfisch]

It is federal law. They do not need to be marked, but most are. That is why I always carry concealed.

Does this include stand-alone restrooms? By stand-alone I mean ones not inside a building used for other purposes.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It is federal law. They do not need to be marked, but most are. That is why I always carry concealed.

In order to comply with the same Federal law they certainly are required to be marked:

18 USC 930:

18 USC § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Anyway, let me know what you guys think.
Thanks!

The laws are EXACTLY THE SAME inside the National Park as outside the National Park. Therefore, I can't understand having any additional questions about carrying inside a National Park v. outside the National Park. Do you have all these concerns walking down the street in normal life? There is nothing different regarding firearms inside the National Park.

Does this include stand-alone restrooms? By stand-alone I mean ones not inside a building used for other purposes.

The federal facilities prohibition does not apply to stand-alone restrooms. If you are in doubt about a building, just look for the sign that is required by federal law to be consipicuously posted at the entrance. A US Park Service janitor cleaning a bathroom once or twice a day does not constitute "regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties."

18 USC § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

 

[sdprof]

where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

Considering that most park facilities are run by a contractor, and not by any actual federal employees - that raises and interesting question. By that standard, the hotels, lodges, restaurants and gift shops don't seem to be federal facilities.

 

[wolf_fire]

Well I found this: Laws & Policies - Yellowstone National Park
A few notable quotes:
"Federal law also prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park (such as visitor centers, government offices, etc.); those places are marked with signs at all public entrances."
"Hunting and discharge of firearms remain prohibited in Yellowstone National Park."
"Firearms should not be considered a wildlife protection strategy. Bear spray and other safety precautions are the proven methods for preventing bear and other wildlife interactions."

I wonder if discharging as a means of protecting one's person, property and loved ones is ok? I would think so but I'd hate to see someone defend themselves and get a fine for discharge or a weapon.

That's why there is the saying, "Better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6".

Yes, bring bear spray, however it doesn't work every time. Now what? Oh well, get eaten and/or mauled by the bear? No, shoot it. Then deal with the legal problems. But here's the good side to that, you're alive to be able to deal with the legal problems.

 

[RJT CCW]

I do know that if you visit the Gateway Arch lock it in your safe in the car. Metal Detectors and potential pat downs.

 

[jfisch]

Really? Thanks.

The laws are EXACTLY THE SAME inside the National Park as outside the National Park. Therefore, I can't understand having any additional questions about carrying inside a National Park v. outside the National Park. Do you have all these concerns walking down the street in normal life? There is nothing different regarding firearms inside the National Park.

Wow! Thanks for that! No... not really.
I would say that carrying firearms in a N.P. is totally different than your average town, street, city, etc.
A N.P. is one of the few places in this country where you're going to be in close proximity to not only people from all over the country but from all over the world. A lot of the foreign tourists probably come from a country where firearms aren't as common or even legal. I had already established I knew what the laws for the state were hence me asking for "advice/experience/anecdotes". I wasn't really concerned about the laws as I was more concerned with the experience. I only started talking about laws because someone else brought them up.
Last thing I need is to be stopped every 30 min by a park ranger because some British, Japanese, French, Enter Country Here, tourist saw my sidearm and freaked out. Again, hence "advice/experience/anecdotes". So unless you've got any "advice/experience/anecdotes" on carrying a firearm in a N.P. then move on. I don't need a bunch of smart ass comments in the vein of "what are you worried about, sissy?" I appreciate your clarification of the building rules but I don't appreciate your obviously snide remarks.
On a side note, I left this forum for awhile because I kept running in to a-holes and it got really tiresome. I figured I'd come back and try it again and of course I run into it immediately on my first post, which, by-the-way, I thought was a valid and reasonable question.
Are people going to ask dumb questions? Yes. Are people going to continue to bring up OC vs. CC, calibers, and every other reoccurring topic? Yes. Do we need to be jerks to them because they were too lazy or ignorant to search past all the "I can't effing believe what Obama did this time" posts? No. People come here to shoot-the-****, ask questions, and give answers regarding a topic most of us consider as important as breathing. No need to be jerks about it all the time. Hell, this very topic was probably covered already and I just felt like asking for myself. No wonder this world is going to crap. Give me a ******* break.

 

[apvbguy]

Wow! Thanks for that! No... not really.
I would say that carrying firearms in a N.P. is totally different than your average town, street, city, etc.
A N.P. is one of the few places in this country where you're going to be in close proximity to not only people from all over the country but from all over the world. A lot of the foreign tourists probably come from a country where firearms aren't as common or even legal.

you need to get out more! visit NYC, DC, Miami to name a few big cities where you will encounter many people from other parts of the country and from around the world. do yourself a favor and go easy on the proclamations of opinions.
FWIW opinions are like anal orifices, we all have them and most of them stink
YMMV

 

[jfisch]

you need to get out more! visit NYC, DC, Miami to name a few big cities where you will encounter many people from other parts of the country and from around the world. do yourself a favor and go easy on the proclamations of opinions.
FWIW opinions are like anal orifices, we all have them and most of them stink
YMMV

Too bad open carry isn't allowed in any of those places you mentioned which makes your statement sort-of irrelevant. I'm was concerned with OCing in a N.P. FYI I've been plenty of places where I've encountered people from around the world and the country. I bet if most people from NYC, DC and Miami saw me OCing they'd freak out too.
Also it's a good thing we live in America so I don't have to, as you put it, "go easy on the proclamations of opinions" so thanks for the advice.

 

[mattlewis7758]

my anal orifice never stinks

 

[NavyLCDR]

jfisch,

In response to your question in your OP and in your tirade posted in #14, I must ask this very relevant question:

Why are you carrying a firearm?

I carry a firearm for my protection, the protection of my family, and just maybe the protection of a complete stranger from the violent attack of a criminal or wild animal. Because that is the reason that I carry a firearm, I will carry my firearm in the way that is both legal and in the manner that I feel is most effective to accomplish that goal, which is 99% of the time openly. I don't particularly care what the reaction of some Japanese tourist might be, or what the reaction of a park ranger might be in response to that Japanese tourist. I know what the law is, I follow the law, and I am capable of explaining what the law is to a Japanese tourist that might ask (in English) or to a park ranger that might approach me.

Having lived in Wyoming between 1978 and 1988 I can't imagine a Yellowstone Park Ranger saying anything to a Japanese tourist other than, "This is the United States, and in this state that gentleman with the gun is perfectly legal and within his rights to carry it." While I have not visited Yellowstone National Park while carrying a firearm, I have openly carried in Cascades National Park and in SEATAC International Airport right in plain sight of Tacoma police officers. They never looked at me twice.

Now, if you want to be concerned about what a Japanese tourist might think about your gun, or what a park ranger's response to that Japanese tourist might be, then just conceal the damn thing and not be concerned about it! How frickin' hard is that?

 

[Stengun]

Howdy jfisch,

Wow! Thanks for that! No... not really.
I would say that carrying firearms in a N.P. is totally different than your average town, street, city, etc.

. Give me a ******* break.

If I drive to the end of my driveway and turn right onto the hiwayand take a left when to deadends into another hiway and then drive about 15 miles I'm in Hot Springs National Park.

To me it's your average town, street, city, etc.

I for one was glad to see the NP conceal carry pass because upto this time if I was in the non-NP part of town and I was legally CCWing and I crossed into the NP part of town ( there is t a border cross, gate, guard at a check point, nothing ) then, suddenly I was breaking a Federal law and violating AR's CHCL rules.

Thanks to President Obama and a Democratic controlled Congress for pass the first and only Pro Gun legislation on a Federal level since the GCA of '68, actually since the 2nd Amendment.

Like many others I CCWed in YS, GC, SM, HS, Zion, Canyonlands, and several other NP long before it was legal.

Paul

 

[Warrior1256]

Just remember it is still illegal to carry in federal buildings even in national parks. For that reason, carrying concealed lessens your chances of arrest if you forget to store your weapon before going into a building.

I reccomend CC for the above and other reasons.