Magazine Capacity, Ammunition, and travel

[GoodDog]

Newbie questions... I'm learning a lot, but stalling on finding answers to some details. I'll start with what I think I understand, to better frame my questions.

TN has no problem with 15 round magazines. Or with ammunition labelled "For Law Enforcement Use Only" or Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 135gr +p jhp. I have put together a short list of possible rounds for carry, but don't want to spend time or money training with them if they will cause me problems later when traveling.

38 states recognize the TN carry permit; 12 plus DC do not.

As I understand the Federal transport exception, I can travel through those states which don't recognize the permit with my weapon unloaded and secured, as long as any stops are only incidental, such as food and fuel. Unloaded means empty magazines, not just separating them from the weapon.

Is overnight lodging an "incidental" stop if I'm not sightseeing or otherwise have any destinations in those states? What if I had no intention of staying overnight, but my car breaks down?

Specific areas of concern:
I understand CA has a 10 round magazine limit, and does not recognize the TN permit. Are the 15 round magazines I possess a problem?

Also, driving through CA in a single day is a long grind...

NY does not recognize the TN permit, and I am likely to go there in the near future. I do have a reason to go there, so it is a destination, not travel through. Are there services near the state line which can hold my gear until I exit the state? I will also be passing through a corner of MD, that passage seems to fit under the Federal transport law.

Separate from the permit, are there any ammunition restrictions in the various states? Do any states require a handgun to have a manual safety? My Sig Sauer SP2022 is not a -M version. My concern is even if the permit is recognized, the weapon and ammo may not be legal.

Pointers to on-line resources which collect this info up are appreciated, digging through dozens of state websites looks like it will eat a lot of time. I did find info on which states are "don't ask/don't tell" versus "must inform" if I'm stopped.

Apologies for so many questions in one post, but they kind of go together for me.

 

[NavyLCDR]

handgunlaw.us

 

[GoodDog]

@NacCLDR: Thanks for the pointer!

Working only through the issue of 15 round magazines, per:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/NoHiCapChemSpray.pdf

CA:

- Bans sale, transfer, import, and export of magazines exceeding 10 rounds capacity

- Does not ban possession of same, so Federal transport exemption may be OK(?)

- But, San Francisco, Sunnyvale, and Los Angeles ban possession of high capacity magazines outright(!)

- Does not recognize TN permit

CO and Denver, CO:

- Has a ban on high capacity magazines, but is 15 rounds. So my gun is OK

CT:

- 10 round limit

- Bans importation

- Anyone moving into the state must remove the high capacity magazine from the state within 90 days

- There is a loophole for a single high capacity magazine within a firearm to only be loaded with 10 rounds, but this requires a recognized permit to carry

- CT does not recognize the TN permit

- All other magazines in possession must be 10 rounds or less capacity

- CT has additional restrictions, but the link in the above article does not work

DC:

- Prohibits possession of magazines greater than 10 rounds.

- No clue if the federal travel exception applies to DC, or just the states

- Does not recognize TN permit

HI:

- Possession of magazines exceeding 10 rounds prohibited

- Does not recognize TN permit

IL

- State preempted all handgun restrictions, so local restrictions only apply to long guns, still confusing to figure this state out

- Does not recognize TN permit

MD:

- No manufacture, sale, or transfer of detachable magazines exceeding 10 round capacity, possession seems OK

- Does not recognize TN permit

MA:

- OK with valid permit

- Does not recognize TN permit

NJ:

- Bans transport(!) of magazines over 15 rounds, so OK in my case, but what about the federal exception for transport?

- Does not recognize the TN permit

NY:

- Doesn't ban the magazines, but is a crime to install more than 10 rounds at a range, and more than 7 elsewhere

- Does not recognize TN permit

In summary, CO seems to be OK with the magazines and recognizes the TN permit. MD seems OK for passing through with weapon secured.

For the rest of the states above, the easy solution seems to be purchasing a few 10 round magazines, seems cheaper and easier than creating a federal case.

And the ones not listed look good for travel, whether by recognized permit or with firearm secured. Again, this summary only applies to 15 round handgun magazines, assuming I made no errors. :smile: I'll try to figure out the ammo question next.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The easiest way to get around the magazine limits is to indeed buy a couple 10 round magazines.

The only ammo restrictions I am aware of is hollow points in New Jersey.

Staying over night in California is no problem, according to California state law you can transport a firearm as long as it is unloaded and in a case. Inside your hotel room you can keep it fully loaded - just not with any magazine more than 10 rounds. BTW, if you bring your own 15 round magazines into the state you have imported them into California and being an out of state resident in possession of 15 round magazines would be pretty strong evidence that you imported them with you since it is illegal to purchase them in California.

I know California because I have relatives there. Can't elaborate on accidentally staying overnight in other states like New York. The police in New York have a record of arresting anyone if they find a handgun and the person doesn't have a New York license regardless of the Federal Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA). After all, you would have to appeal a state conviction in a Federal court if the state court did not abide by FOPA - and most people will just take a plea bargain before doing that.

Best thing to do in states like New York is keep the gun buried in the depths of your luggage in a locked case, keep your mouth shut about guns and ammo if you are stopped, and never unlock the case regardless of what the police threaten you with. (However, California does a firearms inspection requirement that says you have to allow the police to inspect your gun to verify it is unloaded if they request it.)

In states that do honor your permit, another thing to look at on handgunlaw.us is the duty to inform law enforcement that you have a permit and are in possession of a gun. Ironically, there is no state that requires persons without a permit to inform law enforcement.

 

[bofh]

What is your goal here? Investigate each trip you plan in DETAIL RIGHT BEFORE MAKING THE TRIP. Firearms laws change quickly. Making a summary of them now will likely be inaccurate in 6 or 12 months. There are a few basics, like having a few 10-round magazines and a concealed and an open carry holster may be a good idea.

 

[Arc Angel]

Newbie questions... I'm learning a lot, but stalling on finding answers to some details. I'll start with what I think I understand, to better frame my questions.

TN has no problem with 15 round magazines. Or with ammunition labelled "For Law Enforcement Use Only" or Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 135gr +p jhp. I have put together a short list of possible rounds for carry, but don't want to spend time or money training with them if they will cause me problems later when traveling.

38 states recognize the TN carry permit; 12 plus DC do not.

As I understand the Federal transport exception, I can travel through those states which don't recognize the permit with my weapon unloaded and secured, as long as any stops are only incidental, such as food and fuel. Unloaded means empty magazines, not just separating them from the weapon.

Is overnight lodging an "incidental" stop if I'm not sightseeing or otherwise have any destinations in those states? What if I had no intention of staying overnight, but my car breaks down?

Specific areas of concern:
I understand CA has a 10 round magazine limit, and does not recognize the TN permit. Are the 15 round magazines I possess a problem?

Also, driving through CA in a single day is a long grind...

NY does not recognize the TN permit, and I am likely to go there in the near future. I do have a reason to go there, so it is a destination, not travel through. Are there services near the state line which can hold my gear until I exit the state? I will also be passing through a corner of MD, that passage seems to fit under the Federal transport law.

Separate from the permit, are there any ammunition restrictions in the various states? Do any states require a handgun to have a manual safety? My Sig Sauer SP2022 is not a -M version. My concern is even if the permit is recognized, the weapon and ammo may not be legal.

Pointers to on-line resources which collect this info up are appreciated, digging through dozens of state websites looks like it will eat a lot of time. I did find info on which states are "don't ask/don't tell" versus "must inform" if I'm stopped.

Apologies for so many questions in one post, but they kind of go together for me.

I've had a lot of experience with both New York and New Jersey firearms transport laws. Briefly?

IF THEY WANT YOU, THEY'VE GOT YOU - PERIOD!

Forget about the federal, 'Firearm Owners Protection Act'. Each state will - and has - chosen to ignore it at will. Back around 2010 a group of Pennsylvania shooters were planning to attend the USPSA Nationals in Central New Jersey; but, several shooters felt uneasy about bringing their pistols and ammunition into New Jersey; so, one of our (literally) Philadelphia lawyers decided to do some research on the subject.

When the results of that research were posted, NOBODY attended the match. Among other things discovered were the facts that:

(1) If you were not a New Jersey resident you were technically barred from either touching a gun, or purchasing ammunition while you were inside the state.

(2) For a wide variety of reasons the FOPA might, or might not, CYA while you were there.

(3) Virtually anything to do with guns and ammo was at the discretion of the interviewing officer(s) and the county prosecutor.

(4) New Jersey PREFERS to litigate any and all firearm-related charges; and, now, so does New York.

New York and New Jersey are - by any realistic analysis - virulently anti-Second Amendment, anti-gun states! You can't win; so don't even try. I, myself, held a NJFOID card for more than 25 years. I moved to Pennsylvania 20 years ago; and I recently asked the New Jersey State Police what I had to do to make my firearms ID card current? I was told that while it was nice I had a card it would cost me almost $100.00 to bring it up to date; and I would have to be re:fingerprinted, again, for what has to be the 10th or 12th time in my life. When I mentioned that I was currently licensed to carry in Pennsylvania and Florida I was, once again, told that was nice; but I'd still have to complete the process all over again in New Jersey.

I wouldn't; and I didn't; but if I had spent another $100 dollars and gone through the process again IT STILL WASN'T CLEAR whether or not I could legally purchase ammunition inside state boundaries; but, yes, I would be allowed to handle firearms at local shooting ranges and at club matches. Now, when I'm at a New Jersey shooting range I don't even touch any guns, nor do I handle ammunition.

I might be wearing an NRA Instructor's jacket, have my old NJFOID card in my pocket, and be in possession of both PA and FL carry permits; but in New Jersey, as well as in New York, I remain completely divorced from any and all contact with either firearms or ammunition. (I've been offered opportunities to shoot on more than one occasion, and I've always declined.)

WHY? BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY CERTAIN WAY FOR ME TO STAY OUT OF TROUBLE WITH CURRENT GUN LAWS IN EACH OF THESE STATES.

'Unloaded' means more than you think! The gun(s) and magazine(s) have to be unloaded, AND all ammunition has to be separately stored. Firearms and ammo, also, have to be kept in securely locked or securely tied containers. ‘Brief (discretional) stops' are subject to officer interpretation; and, depending upon whatever circumstances, may or may not subject a firearm transporter to arrest. (It's already happened!) In some jurisdictions like, say, New York City's five boroughs,

A NONRESIDENT TRAVELER CANNOT BE IN POSSESSION OF A GUN - PERIOD.

Many many ingenuous travelers have had their butts hauled out of NYC area airports for no other reason than because they had a firearm in their luggage; and these poor unfortunate travelers were, then, gleefully hauled off to NYC's, 'Tombs' prison! (Former NY State Governor, AND Attorney General Elliott Spitzer was infamous for pulling this sort of legalistic crap! He did it all of the time.)

Like you, I've often wished there were someplace near the state lines where I could store, 'my hardware' before leaving Pennsylvania; but there ain't! Illegal ammunition is another problem. In New Jersey JHP ammo isn't really illegal to own or use. It's illegal to possess JHP ammo during the commission of a, (Ready?) 'criminal act' - NOT a felony, but a, 'criminal act'! What is a criminal act? Well, there is the now verified account of the wife of a prominent firearms industry professional who came into New Jersey to visit Six Flags/Great Adventure Park with her NJ state relatives. She forgot that she had her out-of-state legally licensed handgun inside her pocketbook. When she went to pay for the admission tickets her pistol fell out of her handbag right in front of the park's ticket booth. Naturally the police were called; and they scooped her right up, and took her away.

The end result? She went to jail, had to post bond, and in court the judge fined her $3,000 dollars for mistakenly carrying the gun; and then he made an example out of her by charging her an additional $1,000 dollars for each of the 5 illegal JHP bullets in her revolver! (I knew the husband, personally; and he, himself, told me this story! With legal fees and additional travel expenses it was a more than $12,000 dollar mistake!)

I'm retired now; but I, too, used to travel nationally. There were a few states where I would bring a gun with me; but, for most of them I left the gun at home and carried a subtle assortment of alternative weapons, instead. A lot of the time I'm sure it was my personal habits, more than anything else, that kept me safe: e.g., I don't use interstate rest stops. If I have to I'll exit the interstate and use someplace else. I, also, tend not to be outside late at night. Whenever I was able to I used to park only in well lit areas, and as close to busy occupied buildings as possible. I was (and I remain) keenly aware of any activity that tends, or might tend, to isolate me. (No underground or remote parking garages!)

You seem to like to read. Here's a few more reference sources for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

18 U.S. Code § 926A - Interstate transportation of firearms | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/

Enjoy, and good luck!

 

[GoodDog]

What is your goal here?

It's a general learning exercise as preparation for detailed trip planning in the future. I will be going to New York soon. While a state may recognize my TN permit, it may not mean all the rules for it are the same when I cross a border. I know enough to know i don't know all the questions to ask, so looking at all 50 states is helping me learn the right questions.

Agree my summary will likely be out of date soon, please take it as evidence I am listening to, and following up on, answers to my query. Responses are truly appreciated. If I don't so much as say thanks, then my future questions will likely get ignored. Also, while my summary will age, it might give some future new member a head start on the same lack of knowledge. Consider it paying forward. :smile: Finally, if I really screw something up, someone is likely to jump on my error.

Good pointer on CC versus OC requirements in the different states, I hadn't considered that… (quick goole) Ah, I do see issues just with driving in the car.

 

[GoodDog]

BTW, if you bring your own 15 round magazines into the state you have imported them into California and being an out of state resident in possession of 15 round magazines would be pretty strong evidence that you imported them with you since it is illegal to purchase them in California.

Technically, FOPA should cover this case as long as the gear stays packed for transport. But if I unpack it in the hotel room, then FOPA no longer applies. I'll order some new 10-round magazines. They look to be about $40 each.

Handgunlaw.us lists another ammo restriction for San Francisco, but I didn't (yet) see the one for NJ. While the specific round is no longer manufactured, the San Francisco regulation also bans similar rounds, without providing a specific list of those. Nor do they have a list of approved ammo…

On edit: Stopping overnight seems to remove FOPA protection, or the law wouldn't list just "gas and meals" as examples of incidental stops.

 

[GoodDog]

Like you, I've often wished there were someplace near the state lines where I could store, 'my hardware' before leaving Pennsylvania; but there ain't!

I looked at shipping it to general delivery… USPS will not ship complete guns, but will ship parts excluding the body. And ammo in a separate package. Not sure if this will work for general delivery, only real addresses. There are other regulations which specifically allow to shipping to oneself in cases of moving from one state to another, and this does not fit my intent. :nono:

FedEx will only ship to and from FFL holders, not to from individuals (including to oneself).

UPS will ship it from me to my home, signature required, but it needs to be dropped off at a main center, not at any UPS store. Maybe I talked to a brain-dead individual, but they apparently won't ship it to a UPS store, even if I rent a box. :stop:

Bright idea! Drop it off at a gun shop for cleaning and pick it up on the return leg! PA law requires it be "entered into the book" after 24 hours. Then a NICS check for $26.95 before it can be returned. And the kicker? I can't walk out with it, the shop has to mail it to my home. :no:

 

[bofh]

It's a general learning exercise as preparation for detailed trip planning in the future. I will be going to New York soon. While a state may recognize my TN permit, it may not mean all the rules for it are the same when I cross a border. I know enough to know i don't know all the questions to ask, so looking at all 50 states is helping me learn the right questions.

Agree my summary will likely be out of date soon, please take it as evidence I am listening to, and following up on, answers to my query. Responses are truly appreciated. If I don't so much as say thanks, then my future questions will likely get ignored. Also, while my summary will age, it might give some future new member a head start on the same lack of knowledge. Consider it paying forward. :smile: Finally, if I really screw something up, someone is likely to jump on my error.

Good pointer on CC versus OC requirements in the different states, I hadn't considered that… (quick goole) Ah, I do see issues just with driving in the car.

In some states you can OC without a license, but not CC. Also, in some states you can only car carry without a license. Also, in some states car carry without a license must be open. Also, in some states you can OC only with an empty chamber. Also, in some states, printing and partial OC may be illegal. Also, in some states you can be in possession of a long gun but not a pistol. Also, in some states ... . Also, in some municipalities you can't carry at all, despite the fact that the state law says you can. Also, in some municipalities certain or all hollow point ammunition is prohibited. Also, in some municipalities the magazine size restrictions are different from the state. Also, in some municipalities ... . I guess by now you get it. It doesn't matter what some states or municipalities allow or prohibit. It only matters what the states and municipalities you travel through and visit allow or prohibit. Before each trip, I am marking my route and check each state's firearm laws separately.

You mention that you plan to go to NY. Leave your handgun(s) at home!!! From http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf:

From the NRA/ILA on Transporting Firearms through NY.

It is unlawful for any person to carry, possess or transport a handgun in or through the state unless he has a valid New York license. (A provision of federal law provides a defense to state or local laws which would prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate travel if the person is traveling from any place where he may lawfully possess and transport a firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm and the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console).

Technically, FOPA should cover this case as long as the gear stays packed for transport. But if I unpack it in the hotel room, then FOPA no longer applies. I'll order some new 10-round magazines. They look to be about $40 each.

Handgunlaw.us lists another ammo restriction for San Francisco, but I didn't (yet) see the one for NJ. While the specific round is no longer manufactured, the San Francisco regulation also bans similar rounds, without providing a specific list of those. Nor do they have a list of approved ammo…

On edit: Stopping overnight seems to remove FOPA protection, or the law wouldn't list just "gas and meals" as examples of incidental stops.

On FOPA read https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150101/guide-to-the-interstate-transportation.

 

[GoodDog]

You mention that you plan to go to NY. Leave your handgun(s) at home!!!

Sure not going to enter the state with a gun. Great wording in NY law, FOPA is an affirmative defense, which means it can only be used after the weapon is confiscated, and the holder is arrested and charged. FOPA applies as a defense in front of a judge, not in front of an officer at the side of the highway. I can't see how this could pass a constitutional challenge, but I don't want to set out to bring it. That would take a lot of planning and a deep pocket.

Besides, I have a destination in NY, so in no way can my presence in the state be defined as "traveling through." The destination is the entire reason for my entry into NY. FOPA simply would not be an "affirmative defense" in this case. FOPA would apply for my passage through Maryland.

But I won't leave my gear at home. Since I'm striking out on storing near the state line -- due to PA law -- I'll probably leave it somewhere local where I can recover it before returning to this mountain.

I still want to learn more, as I'm also planning to go to Florida, among other places.

 

[GHF]

As to the 7 round limit in magazines in the Peoples Republic of New York of Emperor Andrew, I understood the 10 round capacity, but a judge tossed the 7 in the gun outside the range rule.

Not that I am planning to go there - until the law is changed to allow me, with the 10 rounders I have, can visit any state on my Florida FCWL.