I have been shown that to join or support WAC is a mistake.


LkWd_Don

Banned
Since this last weekend I have been trying to extract the truth from folks about why the Washington Arms Collectors restricts open carry and the ability to purchase firearms at their Gun Shows ONLY to their own members.
I was given a bunch of rhetoric and constantly changing stories as to why.
The only impression I got is that it boils down to, they do not trust Law Abiding Citizens to walk around armed, yet they claim to support our 2A rights while infringing on them.


My Conclusion is that I have been shown that to join or support WAC is a mistake, until they change their disparaging ways considerably.
If you would like to follow my conversation with them, please go to Link Removed

What is worse about them in fact, was when I found one of them actually said the following:
TechnoWeenie said:
WAC = Warning: Always Conceal (at our shows).
So even though they post quite frequently on an OpenCarry website they are not really all that OC Friendly!

If you are an WAC member, please do not try to convince me differently as I am a firm believer that you only get one chance to make a good first impression. Those speaking for WAC that I was communicating with, have blown not only that chance but another 5 or 6 beyond it. You're only hope to change my mind now, is to Show me that you have changed and repented.
 

Th WAC does not back what they are speaking. When you go to a WAC show they don't allow you to carry open or concealed. You are required to un-load the firearm before entering. Not a really gun friendly group that has much trust in those of us who carry legally. They won't get my support!
 
The gun shows I have gone to want to put a nylon tie through your gun to prevent it from being operated. The reason given was that they could not get insurance otherwise. With all the people trying holsters and other goodies for their guns it seemed like a reasonable safety precaution. All though I did not like it once I got in the pack and realized that it would be impossible to draw a gun without sweeping several people I accepted it as reasonable. They were even faster at cutting the tie when I left than they were at putting it on. They did not even blink when I reloaded at the table.
 
Yes, it's all about insurance regs. The venue requires insurance and the insurance requires no loaded guns. It's just the game they have to play to have a gunshow.

It's not about the Association and what they wish.

KK
 
Yes, it's all about insurance regs. The venue requires insurance and the insurance requires no loaded guns. It's just the game they have to play to have a gunshow.

It's not about the Association and what they wish.

KK

I got that same answer from them while at the same time I was also being told that If I wanted to join the WAC I could do so and then proceed as long as I carried concealed.

Somehow, with that knowledge, I don't think the Insurance rhetoric was on the up-and-up.
 
It's not about the Association and what they wish.

KK

I must disagree.

Link Removed

You can and SHOULD become a member of WAC. Only members can buy and sell guns at our shows. Only members may carry firearms into the venue.

WAC works to preserve your 2nd amendment rights. The WAC is based on the principles set forth by the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution which states that every free citizen has the right to keep and bear arms.

Two directly opposing statements right in black and white on the front page of their website. Non-members are not allowed to carry even unloaded and zip tied firearms into the venue.

I have no problems with an "unload and zip tie" rule for every firearm that goes into a gun show. If you don't like the rule then don't go. But don't make different carry rules for non-members and members and then in the same breath claim that you support every free citizen's right to bear arms. Insurance has got nothing to do with that, it's called elitism.
 
I must disagree.

Link Removed

Two directly opposing statements right in black and white on the front page of their website. Non-members are not allowed to carry even unloaded and zip tied firearms into the venue.

I have no problems with an "unload and zip tie" rule for every firearm that goes into a gun show. If you don't like the rule then don't go. But don't make different carry rules for non-members and members and then in the same breath claim that you support every free citizen's right to bear arms. Insurance has got nothing to do with that, it's called elitism.

I had seen the Puyallup Gun Show listed in the Friends of the NRA events and it gave dates and location. No other info.
Had I known it was a WAC event to begin with, I would not have even thought about attending because I had written to their Board of Directors a few years back, in reference to their lack of respecting the Service of our US Military personnel by not offering a discount at their events and I never even got the courtesy of a reply from them.
Going to their website I did see at that time, don't know about now as I have not looked lately, but they did offer a membership discount to Active Duty members.
I still take issue with potentially giving a fresh/raw recruit a discount that may never be earned just because they have that green(now White) ID card when those who have served honorably long enough to retire are told Get Lost! And that dislike actually extends to nearly all who offer such discounts only to active duty.
 
This is an indication of those who support the WAC.
poster2 said:
responding to poster 1
poster1 said:
please inform us to why a organization that was put together to defend our 2A rights is now taking our rights away when we come to visit your public gun show. Why are legal american citizens stripped of there 2A rights when they come to your public gun shows.

They're not 'taking away our rights', it's private property. The bill of rights was to protect the people from the government, not the people from other people. Your argument is invalid.

Even so, your rights end where others begin.. As private property, they make the rules. If they want you to do 10 jumping jacks while wearing a pink shirt, you can comply or GTFO.

The more I see of them, the more I find them laughable.
 
Threads like this is one of the biggest reasons I joined this site. TO LEARN. Thanks for the information.
 
Their claim Since Puyallup Fairgrounds is private property, they (WAC) can decide how it is used, while they are renting it.

At first they were claiming that those who Manage the Fair set the rules, but when I posted links to the Documents found at TheFair.com and challenged them to show me where they were restricted, they changed their tunes. Then they wanted to claim that an Insurance rider to have Loaded arms in the facility would cost them too much and that was after they had already admitted that they allow "Their Members" to Carry (Provided it was Concealed) in to and throughout the show, making that argument void.

These are the documents.

Fair Facility Rental Handbook dtd: January 2011
Link Removed

Fair Fire and Safety Requirements handbook Revised December 2008
Link Removed

Washington State Fairs By-Laws
Link Removed
 
I must disagree.

Link Removed



Two directly opposing statements right in black and white on the front page of their website. Non-members are not allowed to carry even unloaded and zip tied firearms into the venue.

I have no problems with an "unload and zip tie" rule for every firearm that goes into a gun show. If you don't like the rule then don't go. But don't make different carry rules for non-members and members and then in the same breath claim that you support every free citizen's right to bear arms. Insurance has got nothing to do with that, it's called elitism.

I guess my knowledge is restricted to SC. I have been setting up tables for four different promoter's for years. American, Land of the Sky Brown's and SC Arms Collecters. While American and Brown's are gone, I still do the SCACA shows at every Greenville location date.

The insurance has been the reason for them. Admittedly, Washington may be different than SC.

KK
 
The insurance has been the reason for them. Admittedly, Washington may be different than SC.

KK

I wasn't arguing that insurance could be a valid reason for all guns to be unloaded and zip tied at a gun show. That is entirely possible. My comment was specific to the Washington Arms Collectors that only allow their members to bring unloaded and zip tied guns into the gun show.
 
NavyLCDR said:
I must disagree.

Link Removed

Two directly opposing statements right in black and white on the front page of their website. Non-members are not allowed to carry even unloaded and zip tied firearms into the venue.
I guess my knowledge is restricted to SC. I have been setting up tables for four different promoter's for years. American, Land of the Sky Brown's and SC Arms Collecters. While American and Brown's are gone, I still do the SCACA shows at every Greenville location date.

The insurance has been the reason for them. Admittedly, Washington may be different than SC.

KK

FRONT PAGE said:
~~ Only members can buy and sell guns at our shows. Only members may carry firearms into the venue. ~~ WAC works to preserve your 2nd amendment rights. The WAC is based on the principles set forth by the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution which states that every free citizen has the right to keep and bear arms.

Then if you go to the Shows link and scroll down, you will find this
RULES OF THE ROAD said:
Rules of the Road

1. There will be no loaded firearms, magazines, or speedloaders in the building, either on the tables or on one’s person, with the exception of law enforcement and private security officers under contract with WAC.

Yet a couple different members told me that they were permitted to carry LOADED into the venue as long as they keep it concealed.

Then with the constantly changing stories coming from the members, I get the impression that their Board is doing a poor job of educating the members. Well as they hold elections and any voting member according to their by-laws can serve on the BoD, that is really scary.

That in itself puts them as being a black-eye on Gun-Rights and all summed up is why I will not support or join WAC.

Keykutter, If you organized the events held in Columbia back in 1990 through 1991, then I have most likely attended a few at least, as the first Taurus .357 Revolver I bought was at one of them.
 
No, I didn't organize the shows. I had my own tables. I noticed I said 'for', but I meant 'with'.

I forgot Mitch's last name but he was the promoter of the American show's. We had a lot of shows at the Columbia fairgrounds until he left his wife and ran off with his boy friend. Who knew???

Apparently I was one of the few who didn't. Looking back, he was a little flamboyant. His wife was really nice though!

Anyhow, Spencer Barker, SCACA's promoter, just came by my tables a few minutes ago and sat down for a minute or two. I asked him for the straight skinny.

He said it was all about the insurance here in SC and he would like nothing more than to let people adhere to their rights but it's either no loaded guns or no show.

So, Washington has it a lot better than we do. It wouln't take but a few seconds for most of us to become dangerous though:):):)

KK
 
Spencer Barker, SCACA's promoter, just came by my tables a few minutes ago and sat down for a minute or two. I asked him for the straight skinny.

He said it was all about the insurance here in SC and he would like nothing more than to let people adhere to their rights but it's either no loaded guns or no show.

KK

And I can and would have accepted that as a logical answer from the folks here, had they been in unison and not giving me multiple differing answers while contradicting themselves in the process. LOL Go figure, still I will feel better distancing myself from that mass-confusion brought on by their being more interested in numbers of members for lobbying efforts then insuring their members are actually knowledgeable of and abiding by their own rules.

If I had my purchase receipt still from when I bought my Taurus 689 .357 in 91 I would see if I bought from you or someone you know.

Well, have a great day, I will look to be exchanging thoughts and comments with you again.
Extending hand for handshake
 
A few comments from a WAC Volunteer (Re-stated, w/ corrections).

First off, I am not now and not until that day when pigs fly and hell freezes over (and I'm elected President of WAC, about equally likely) speaking on behalf of WAC officially or unofficially. Nor am I speaking for any other organization, employer, acquaintance, or anyone else but *me*.

Now that we have that out of the way, I can tell you what I've learned in 15-20 years of intermittent WAC membership.

The Washington Arms Collectors is a non-profit led by its member-elected officers and directors under the laws of the State of Washington. WAC is a private membership organization that puts on between 20 and 24 events (shows) for its members each year, admitting those members of the public willing to pay an admission fee and abide by WAC rules in addition to complying with all legal obligations.

The by-laws of WAC and the WAC "Rules of the Road" that are subordinate to the by-laws may be found at Link Removed ... I suggest study of those would contribute significantly to the tenor of this and similar conversations.

Current practice and procedure at WAC Shows (Enumclaw, Monroe, Puyallup) does not allow *any* person not either law enforcement or WAC-hired security to carry a loaded firearm at the show. At each show, bullet traps are available at the entrance to allow members to clear their sidearms and have them zip-tied by security. As you may note in the rules of the road, only members may purchase firearms at the show or bring firearms into the show (unloaded and zip-tied), however non-members may purchase most other items if a table operator is willing to sell to them. Loaded magazines, clips, and speed-loaders are all off limits at shows as welll.

My best information is that this approach evolved as a result of several ND's over a period of several years at the Puyallup location, after an ultimatum was issued by fair management that a single additional ND would result in immediate and permanent lease termination. As the Fairgrounds are a unique venue, I rather doubt they would have any difficulty replacing WAC as a tenant. I may be mistaken, as I do not have primary sources readily available to me.

WAC, on the other hand, would be unlikely to be able to replace the Fairgrounds (their largest and most successful location) in any sort of realistic time frame. Thus far, the response I've seen is to establish a building fund with the eventual goal of WAC purchasing and operating its' own primary property. I suspect that would be the point in time that the "Loaded Firearms Policy" would logically be reconsidered.

My understanding is that WAC has historically chosen to continue to offer the Gun Community some of the largest (and arguably best) gun shows in the nation rather than adhere to some form of ideological purity, holding that it is better that such a space exist for pro-gun interaction and networking (and more than a few sales) and more in the best interests of the Gun Community than throwing up its collective hands, taking its toys, and going home.

As to the insurance issue? Not everything is *insurable* at an affordable cost, if at all. WAC (and every gun show operator, open or membership) is in my understanding a high-risk group to begin with. Throwing together several thousand folks with random levels of safety skills in an environment where firearms handling is *expected* and then throwing loaded firearms into the mix ...may not be an acceptable level of risk for an insurer.

To address the comparison of a WAC show to a gun store? Have you ever seen a gun store that size? Every gun store I've ever been in, when it came to firearms handling, operated in a closely supervised fashion - typically one gun out, verified empty, being shown to one customer per "employee on deck". Three staff = max of three guns being shown at any one time, in other words. The tradeoff for the significantly greater freedom at WAC shows is, in my eyes, a pretty directly proportional focus on preventative safety measures.

WAC has publicly posted (see the website and the gate area at events) their policies. It is not their obligation (nor even possible) to somehow read the minds of all persons wishing to attend their events and then send them a copy of the rules by registered mail. Failure to adhere to those rules can result in ejection, termination of membership, and in truly special cases - arrest and prosecution. That is the right of any event-holding private organization.

Around since at least 1952 (and rumor has it, long before), WAC was not founded as a "gun rights" organization. It was founded as a collectors group, and while vastly changed since those founding days with a single location (the Renton High School gym), many of its traditions and bits of organizational culture come from those days. Today it is a multi-million dollar organization that, by its very structure (I can never remember 501(c)3 or (c)4) is prohibited from direct political participation. It may educate, litigate, and put on events for its members where one or both of these goals are pursued.

Of course, to do that, it must continue to *operate*.

And it is run, in the final analysis, by membership - that elects officers and directors, who in turn appoint committees/hire staff/contract for locations/etc.

Like any organization, WAC is imperfect - but is doing what it can with what it has. My own view is that WAC is undergoing another great leap forward - from operating in a reactive and familial mode appropriate to a smaller organization to a more pro-active approach that takes the longer view. Your mileage may vary. What I can say with certainty is that each of the officers and directors I've interacted with - no matter how much I disagree with them or take exception to their decisions/actions on occasion - are passionately dedicated to the cause of firearms rights in their best understanding of those rights and how best to pursue their restoration.

Tearing down an organization doing its best to serve our community, particularly one that has done quite well at it in the past does not strike me as terribly constructive. At least until you are willing to throw the dollars that will get them a venue they own and there WAC can have a completely (well, within the law, at least) free hand in setting the event rules.

Now, to review the first paragraph. I have the privilege to volunteer with WAC. My comments don't represent their views, only mine. I have an employer. My comments don't represent their views, either. Again, my views and recollections are purely my own. Finally, I'll assert that I'm human and thus vulnerable to fading memory, simple error, and being misinformed. I'm not getting paid for this bit, so my willingness to provide detailed citations is severely limited (in other words, you can use google/phones/email as well as I can).

GC

P.S. If this seems familiar, that's because it is. When engaging in the same discourse on the same topic with more or less the same group of folks with the only difference being location, I am somewhat unsure of the benefit of coming up with entirely new material to address the same points. YMMV.
 
First off, I am not now and not until that day when pigs fly and hell freezes over (and I'm elected President of WAC, about equally likely) speaking on behalf of WAC officially or unofficially. Nor am I speaking for any other organization, employer, acquaintance, or anyone else but *me*.

~~ clipped for brevity ~~
GC

P.S. If this seems familiar, that's because it is. When engaging in the same discourse on the same topic with more or less the same group of folks with the only difference being location, I am somewhat unsure of the benefit of coming up with entirely new material to address the same points. YMMV.

If you read my post above(#16 to keykutter), I think you may understand and possibly agree with this statement.

Until WAC can turn it's eduction inward and educate their own members as to what is in their own Articles of Incorporation (association, federation or whatever), their By-Laws and their own Rules of The Road to where every member fully understands them and can answer questions fairly, honestly, accurately and without changing stories, speculating and all the other things that I observed those who were members did, they are their own worst walking advertisement as they drive good people away!

I could not reason with the the closed-mindedness that I encountered, so I come back to and stand by my declaration on this thread. I have been shown that to join or support WAC is a mistake.
 
After reading through this thread, I come away with a thought on an area not receiving as much ire. This comment is based on this being one of the gun shows in the Puyallup Fairgrounds that advertises in various media. If not; my comment is without merit.

As an occasional reader of such advertisements, I have long been mildly interested in attending such a show. It is a rather long drive for me, and I would have to leave early since we all know that the good stuff is gone in the first 20 minutes. So I have not. I have attended shows closer to me. To arrive at such a gun show and see a sign that says I can't buy guns would be very annoying. I don't remember ever seeing a gun show advertised that says you can't buy a gun. If these shows are advertised, and with that condition clearly stated; no real problem with the process. Other than it is, in my opinion, dumb.
 
~~ snipped ~~
WAC is a private membership organization that puts on between 20 and 24 events (shows) for its members each year, admitting those members of the public willing to pay an admission fee and abide by WAC rules in addition to complying with all legal obligations.

The by-laws of WAC and the WAC "Rules of the Road" that are subordinate to the by-laws may be found at Link Removed ... I suggest study of those would contribute significantly to the tenor of this and similar conversations.

Current practice and procedure at WAC Shows (Enumclaw, Monroe, Puyallup) does not allow *any* person not either law enforcement or WAC-hired security to carry a loaded firearm at the show. At each show, bullet traps are available at the entrance to allow members to clear their sidearms and have them zip-tied by security. As you may note in the rules of the road, only members may purchase firearms at the show or bring firearms into the show (unloaded and zip-tied), however non-members may purchase most other items if a table operator is willing to sell to them. Loaded magazines, clips, and speed-loaders are all off limits at shows as welll.

My best information is that this approach evolved as a result of several ND's over a period of several years at the Puyallup location, after an ultimatum was issued by fair management that a single additional ND would result in immediate and permanent lease termination. As the Fairgrounds are a unique venue, I rather doubt they would have any difficulty replacing WAC as a tenant. I may be mistaken, as I do not have primary sources readily available to me.

WAC, on the other hand, would be unlikely to be able to replace the Fairgrounds (their largest and most successful location) in any sort of realistic time frame. Thus far, the response I've seen is to establish a building fund with the eventual goal of WAC purchasing and operating its' own primary property. I suspect that would be the point in time that the "Loaded Firearms Policy" would logically be reconsidered.

My understanding is that WAC has historically chosen to continue to offer the Gun Community some of the largest (and arguably best) gun shows in the nation rather than adhere to some form of ideological purity, holding that it is better that such a space exist for pro-gun interaction and networking (and more than a few sales) and more in the best interests of the Gun Community than throwing up its collective hands, taking its toys, and going home.

~~ snipped ~~
WAC has publicly posted (see the website and the gate area at events) their policies. It is not their obligation (nor even possible) to somehow read the minds of all persons wishing to attend their events and then send them a copy of the rules by registered mail. ~~ snipped ~~

Like any organization, WAC is imperfect - but is doing what it can with what it has.
~~ snipped

I see this is an old topic and it may be beating a dead horse, but I can attest that the WAC gun shows have been advertised in venues where there was no link to WAC or to their show advertisement provided, no statement that it was a "Only Members may purchase" gun show, or that non-members would not be permitted inside with a firearm. I have seen where that was disputed, but I have also looked at the whole of this topic to include the posts on the other forum, and that was one of the first complaints that the OP had. That he had seen it advertised at the NRA website, wanted to check it out, and was turned away at the door because he was carrying and was not a member. He had not been offered to unload it and zip-tie it, he and his wife had been turned away after spending the time and gas to go there, simply because they were not members.

I personally have checked with the primary leasing contact at the Fairgrounds and she said that they did not have a No Firearms policy in their lease as some individuals (member and Board) of WAC had told him.

I can see where he was given baseless excuse after baseless excuse and understand what he is saying by WAC needs to focus their education efforts to their own members first, as there were more than just a couple who were claiming that they are members and that Members could carry "loaded" into the venue. Something that their rules of the road say is a no-no.

In regard to your "Mind Reading" comment, I might suggest that if they would not advertise, permit others to advertise on their behalf, or at least would ask that no-one advertise their shows without posting a link to their Rules of the Road then I would have to say, that they deserve any bad press they get. After all, how can they claim that they are supporting the 2A when their own policies are so restrictive of an individuals gun rights?

I am all for supporting any organizations that actually support Gun-Rights, Proper Firearm Safety, and Promotes Law-Abiding Firearm Ownership.
 

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