Guns & Ammo Editor Nearly Shoots Himself Proving That Serpa Holsters Suck.

[Rhino]

Yes, you make my point.

Not unless you're speaking a different language. You said the problem with the holster design is a matter of human factors, but a holster doesn't have human factors. It's an inanimate object. People have human factors. Holsters don't.
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The holster is less forgiving by design. People will make mistakes. History has shown it.

BINGO! We have a winner! The PEOPLE are the problem, NOT the holster.
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Design can absolutely be part of the issue.

If you want to get abstract, sure, design can be part of some issues. That is technically possible. The design and the issue would of course determine how that abstract thought would be converted into concrete fact, but that's theory that I don't really care to discuss..
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Kids that eat the colorful dish washer detergent cubes because they look like candy? Design. Giving an adult dose of heparin to a child because the labels look exactly the same? Design. Floppy leather holsters that get caught in the trigger guard on reholstering? Design. Holsters that don't cover the whole trigger guard? Design. Yes, design can make a huge difference.

And speaking of abstract.....
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Look, I'm in the design business. I have no skin in this fight but to make our sport and our lives safer. If you actually read my post you'd see that as I said, most of the time, there won't be any issues.

Wow. I just have to read your post and all issues will be solved, huh? Potent.
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Use the holsters if you want.

Thanks.
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There are amazing innovations out there that improve the quality of the human condition. Serpa isn't evil.

Really? Glad to hear it. I was thinking of calling Ghostbusters, but I guess I can relax now.
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I just think it can be improved. The guys taking it off their ranges apparently do too.

Spoken with them, huh? Actually they just wanted to reduce NDs and all the negative that come with them. They didn't say zippity doo dah about the design, but we've already covered that.
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You can insult my trigger discipline or my knowledge or whatever,...

I'm not sure if someone else insulted you before this or if you have some natural tendency to feel insulted, but I didn't insult you. I just said I didn't feel a need to read the rest of your post.
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but you should actually read my post...

I actually did read your post. And after reading it I discovered I was right. I didn't need to. You don't know jack about Serpa holsters. I'm guessing you've never had one and you're operating on pure supposition, which doesn't say much for you as an engineer. And if you had had one, and you still think the design of their holsters encourages bad trigger discipline, then you have been horribly trained in how to use a gun.
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Proper trigger discipline tells us to keep our finger off the trigger until ready to fire, but just where should it be when using a semiautomatic pistol? Ideally it should rest on the frame or the slide just above the trigger opening, or on the leading edge of the trigger guard if your finger is long enough. If you holster and unholster properly, you should naturally put your finger into that position as you grab the butt of the gun in preparation to draw, and keep it there as the gun slides out of the holster. That means your finger should be resting on the outside of the holster in the position that it would be if the gun were out of the holster, and it should maintain that position as the gun is drawn. Your claim, and the claim of some others, is that the design of the Serpa encourages you to bend your finger into the trigger guard as the gun is drawn. So let's see if that holds water.
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Link Removed
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Image 1 is a Glock G30 in a Serpa holster. The release button is the piece that has kind of the shape of Nebraska. The pivot point is the bottom of the button, meaning it hinges in toward the top, so it's easier to press on the upper portion of it. Although the picture makes the button appear to be recessed, it is only recessed on the top. The front and back are left open so your finger can lay across the button to operate it. Contrary to what some people believe, you don't operate the button with your fingertip. You operate it with the face of your finger that is laying against the holster.
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Image 1 is my hand on the pistol fully around the butt, ready to draw. My trigger finger is over the release button on the holster, but I haven't pushed it yet. If you're familiar with Glocks, you'll know this position isn't really over the trigger. It's mostly over the small piece of frame that's between the slide and the trigger opening, but the lower half of the finger is over the trigger opening. Notice that my fingertip isn't over the release button. That's because you don't operate the button with your fingertip. You merely press your finger against the holster, in place, without changing the position. The button doesn't require much pressure to operate. You could conceivably operate it with your fingertip, but only if your finger was just long enough to reach that far, making your fingertip the only option. If you change your finger position and curl it to press the button, then you've violated a basic and very critically important rule of trigger discipline. It doesn't matter what holster you're wearing. You just screwed up, and it could cause a negligent discharge. Such a scenario is a shooter error, not the fault of a holster.
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In image 3 I've pressed the release button with the face of my finger and I've begun to slide the gun out. Following the rules of proper trigger discipline, I've kept my finger straight as the gun comes out. Not that it was much of an effort, because I didn't have to do anything to accomplish that. As a result, my finger remains resting against the frame and the front of the trigger guard, just as it should. I have not committed the shooter mistake of curling my finger into the trigger guard. And I have not committed the dufus of the year error of trying to blame my mistake on something that didn't cause it.
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Image 4 appears to be an exact duplicate of image 3, but it isn't. Had I realized how similar they were I wouldn't have included it.
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There was absolutely nothing here that encouraged me to do anything wrong. But there was something that encouraged me to do something right. The placement of the release button on this holster reinforces the habit of having my trigger finger pointed out in a manner that has it over the slide and trigger guard of my pistol when I draw it, just where it should be. You know, that human factor. I used Serpas extensively when I was training, and I used them for training my family members for the same reason, because it reinforces good trigger discipline. And with proper training and repetition, this holster very much helps in turning good trigger discipline into muscle memory. Whenever I use a new holster now, my trigger finger instinctively goes to the proper position, and this holster is one of the tools I have to thank for that.
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So the only 'design issue' here is that Serpa put the button exactly where it should be for proper trigger use, which makes this a great design. The only human factor at play is that humans keep screwing up. And the only problem is that instead of taking responsibility for their own mistakes, many people try to blame something else, or anything else, even fictitious design 'issues'.

 

[C.Rock]

So the only 'design issue' here is that Serpa put the button exactly where it should be for proper trigger use, which makes this a great design. The only human factor at play is that humans keep screwing up..

Ummm... Yeah. You are right, and I totally agree. If used perfectly, it will be perfectly safe.


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[Rhino]

Duplicate.

 

[Rhino]

Ummm... Yeah. You are right, and I totally agree. If used perfectly, it will be perfectly safe.

Nothing is ever "perfectly" safe. And if all holsters and guns were used perfectly, we'd never have any more NDs, but we know that won't happen.
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You say "If used perfectly" to make it sound like there's some difficult to achieve act required to achieve a happy outcome. The only thing I had to do to 'use it perfectly' was to not bend my finger. That's a standard, very easy to do, rule of trigger discipline and it always has been. Since when do you think that's unreasonable? In what way did that Serpa holster make it difficult for me to keep my finger straight?
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You said the Serpa is less forgiving by design. I myself said by virtue of its' design that it was more likely to turn improper discipline into a dangerous outcome. Both of those remarks are correct, but neither indicates a design flaw. An 18 wheeler is less forgiving by design than a car, and is more likely to turn improper discipline into a dangerous outcome, but that doesn't mean it has a design issue. It means it requires a higher level of skill and training to operate safely and properly. Curling your finger on your holster is a mistake, a potentially dangerous one, with any holster on the market. The Serpa doesn't encourage you to do that because curling your finger isn't necessary to operate the release button and use the holster. Someone who is in the habit of cutting corners with that car will be in trouble if they're put into a truck and those habits resurface, because the design of the truck makes that habit dangerous, and it's less forgiving when that happens, and the Serpa is the same way. There is no flaw in the design, but it is less forgiving when bad habits and mistakes surface. This same controversy and this same argument is practically a carbon copy of the argument about Glock's trigger safety. There's nothing inherently dangerous about the design, but it's very unforgiving of careless use.
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I should apologize for the way I've been talking to you. I know as a design engineer you felt there could be a better way to do this. You said the user had to use their index finger to press the button, which placed it "in the general direction of pull near the trigger guard while drawing." We know now that isn't true but it's obvious your heart was in the right place. From a design standpoint, you'd want the finger to be in the best possible position for both safety and for proper pistol usage. That's actually what the placement of the button on the Sherpa holster does, though obviously some untrained and/or uninformed users obviously aren't aware of it and are placing their finger in the wrong position. They could go to thumb breaks, but there are already plenty of those on the market. They could move the button forward, but this might complicate things for short fingered users or it might make the mechanism more of a challenge. That could increase both the size and the price of the holster, and we all know the market implications of that. There's also the consideration that they want the button where it is for the same reason that I do. It's in the perfect place for users that practice proper trigger discipline. Your argument has made me think of one change they could possibly make though. I don't recall ever seeing anything in the packaging with my Sherpas on how to use them properly. I think it would be a good idea for them to consider that many of their customers may be novices, and supply at least some mention of how to use the holsters properly. They don't even come with assembly instructions, and they DO require assembly.
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I realized something interesting on my way to this thread tonight. Serpas total 8.84% on the "What is your favorite Concealed Carry Holster?" list on this site. That surprises me a bit. Not because of any problem with them. I've always considered them kind of bulky for concealed carry. So while I do sometimes carry with my Serpas in winter, I'd never call them a favorite for concealed carry, and it surprises me a bit that almost 9% of the people surveyed here did. Maybe they were newbies who took the survey when they first arrived and didn't know that much about holsters.

 

[Deanimator]

I only use the leather tuckable IWB and pocket holsters that I make myself, so it's the mootest of moot points for me.