Frangible vs hollow vs fmj what do you carry?
- Thread starter shane34652
- Start date
xdm9 shooter
New member
Here's some results from some back yard testing I did:
I used 2 Hard-cover cabela's master catalogs placed back-to-back and shot from 30 ft. I was interested in penetration vs damage with 3 loads that I had at the house. not a real scientific test, BUT I was actually very surprised at the results:
WOLF 124 gr. FMJ : penetrated 1 1/4 of the catalogs. Exit out of first catalog was a perfect, full 1" hole.
HORNADY 124 gr. XTP : penetrated 1st. catalog and lodged in cover of second. Bullet was fully expanded/ mangled and had a 4" cavitation in the pages.
HORNADY 124 gr. TAP : penetrated 1 1/2 catalogs! Empty, copper jacket was lodged in the cover of 2nd. catalog, but small pieces of frangible core had penetrated on through 1/2 way into the 2nd. catalog. The most penetration of the 3 I tried, and still left a 4-4 1/2" cavitation damage.
Best part for me was being able to flip through the pages and assess the damage that was done as the bullets passed through. I realize, that using WOLF ammo for the FMJ was not exactly an even comparison with HORNADY, but it was what I had. Either way, a 1" exit wound is bleeding profusely!! The TAP is what I want in my weapon for in-home defense due to massive damage and frangible core. However, I'm considering alternating some FMJ's with my HP's for CCW just for added penetration in sort of how "Stephen Harder" above, described.
I used 2 Hard-cover cabela's master catalogs placed back-to-back and shot from 30 ft. I was interested in penetration vs damage with 3 loads that I had at the house. not a real scientific test, BUT I was actually very surprised at the results:
WOLF 124 gr. FMJ : penetrated 1 1/4 of the catalogs. Exit out of first catalog was a perfect, full 1" hole.
HORNADY 124 gr. XTP : penetrated 1st. catalog and lodged in cover of second. Bullet was fully expanded/ mangled and had a 4" cavitation in the pages.
HORNADY 124 gr. TAP : penetrated 1 1/2 catalogs! Empty, copper jacket was lodged in the cover of 2nd. catalog, but small pieces of frangible core had penetrated on through 1/2 way into the 2nd. catalog. The most penetration of the 3 I tried, and still left a 4-4 1/2" cavitation damage.
Best part for me was being able to flip through the pages and assess the damage that was done as the bullets passed through. I realize, that using WOLF ammo for the FMJ was not exactly an even comparison with HORNADY, but it was what I had. Either way, a 1" exit wound is bleeding profusely!! The TAP is what I want in my weapon for in-home defense due to massive damage and frangible core. However, I'm considering alternating some FMJ's with my HP's for CCW just for added penetration in sort of how "Stephen Harder" above, described.
Steven Harder
New member
SGB
New member
Once again another who has to demagog someone who disagrees with their opinion. Please Mr. Harder tell us all about ALL the "special ammunition" that the Special Operations Command uses and what it's specifically used for as well as how you know this. Please supply the NSN #'s and links to substantiate your assertions and then school us on how this relates to civilian self defense.
Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds
Fackler, Martin L., M.D.: "The 'Strasbourg Tests:' Another Gunwriter/Bullet Salesman Fraud?" Wound Ballistics Review, 1(4): 10-11; 1994.
Dr. Martin Fackler, IWBA president, reviews the authorless "Strasbourg Tests," a purported study of the reaction of several hundred live unanesthetized "human-sized" goats that were allegedly shot to test the "one-shot stopping power" of various handgun cartridges. Fackler explains the many incongruities, inconsistencies and absurdities which lead him (and most other wound ballistics experts) to conclude that the "Strasbourg Tests" are a hoax.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...TuXT5n&sig=AHIEtbTwgpBQ2o_YrtpkhSXpe-JugI8P4A
Steven Harder
New member
Very open question . . . but, in the current "anti-terrorist" situation, expanding bullets are legal. Because of that, you may find a number of different "special" rounds being carried, depending on the mission. (This statement deals specifically with handgun ammo.)
Here's some for you to play with . . .
9MM JACKETED HOLLOW POINT (1305-A260), NSN 1305-01-357-8488 AND 1305-01-333-3929
A362 FMJ subsonic
Caliber 5.56mm Ball, Carbine, Barrier MK 318 MOD 0 NSN: 1305-01-573-2229
Caliber 7.62mm Ball, Rifle, Barrier MK319 MOD 0 NSN: 1305-01-572-8492
Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Special, M118LR
Caliber 7.62mm Special Ball, Long Range, MK 316 MOD 0 NSN: 1305-01-567-6944
.300 Win. Mag. Match (PIP) NSN: 1305-01-568-7504
There's also some that use the LeHigh (sp) bullets.
Here's some for you to play with . . .
9MM JACKETED HOLLOW POINT (1305-A260), NSN 1305-01-357-8488 AND 1305-01-333-3929
A362 FMJ subsonic
Caliber 5.56mm Ball, Carbine, Barrier MK 318 MOD 0 NSN: 1305-01-573-2229
Caliber 7.62mm Ball, Rifle, Barrier MK319 MOD 0 NSN: 1305-01-572-8492
Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Special, M118LR
Caliber 7.62mm Special Ball, Long Range, MK 316 MOD 0 NSN: 1305-01-567-6944
.300 Win. Mag. Match (PIP) NSN: 1305-01-568-7504
There's also some that use the LeHigh (sp) bullets.
Ghost Rider
New member
Frangible rounds are useless for a self defense bullet. Stay with the hollow points your using now.
Im using Remington Golden Saber 147gr brass jacketed hollow points in my Glock 19. I would never consider using a frangible for anything.
Im using Remington Golden Saber 147gr brass jacketed hollow points in my Glock 19. I would never consider using a frangible for anything.
SGB
New member
So how do -
Caliber 5.56mm Ball, Carbine, Barrier MK 318 MOD 0 NSN: 1305-01-573-2229
Caliber 7.62mm Ball, Rifle, Barrier MK319 MOD 0 NSN: 1305-01-572-8492
Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Special, M118LR
Caliber 7.62mm Special Ball, Long Range, MK 316 MOD 0 NSN: 1305-01-567-6944
.300 Win. Mag. Match (PIP) NSN: 1305-01-568-7504
- apply to this unverified/alleged Strasbourg test and the use of frangible ammunition or any other question posed to you?
Explain your self sir, you've disparaged me as ignorant because I disagree with the value you place on this alleged Strasbourg test and now you dance around educating such an uninformed Instructor as myself.
Back up your post, present your credentials and explain to us what frangible handgun ammunition that SOCOM uses due to the information contained in this alleged holy grail of definitive terminal ballistics known as the "Strasbourg test".
Steven Harder
New member
Once again another who has to demagog someone who disagrees with their opinion. Please Mr. Harder tell us all about ALL the "special ammunition" that the Special Operations Command uses and what it's specifically used for as well as how you know this. Please supply the NSN #'s and links to substantiate your assertions and then school us on how this relates to civilian self defense.
Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds
Fackler, Martin L., M.D.: "The 'Strasbourg Tests:' Another Gunwriter/Bullet Salesman Fraud?" Wound Ballistics Review, 1(4): 10-11; 1994.
Dr. Martin Fackler, IWBA president, reviews the authorless "Strasbourg Tests," a purported study of the reaction of several hundred live unanesthetized "human-sized" goats that were allegedly shot to test the "one-shot stopping power" of various handgun cartridges. Fackler explains the many incongruities, inconsistencies and absurdities which lead him (and most other wound ballistics experts) to conclude that the "Strasbourg Tests" are a hoax.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...TuXT5n&sig=AHIEtbTwgpBQ2o_YrtpkhSXpe-JugI8P4A
Let me repeat this for you . . .
It's been known for some time, that there are the Fackler Fan Boys, that will do any and everything in their power to claim bigger and heavier is better. Hate to break the news to ya', but there are plenty of later medical studies that seem to back up the reported results of the Strasboug test. Why not open your mind and do a little research? You can start with "Ballistic Pressure Wave Theory Confirmed in Human Autopsy Results". But, being a Fackler Fan Boy, I'm sure you'll say it's a waste of your time . . . because it contradicts your beliefs.
BTW, I was a Fackler Fan Boy for a long time as well.
Steven Harder
New member
Trying to deflect??? You asked for the NSN's of "special" rounds used by SOCOM, I've given you some! How does it relate to the Stasbourg test? SOCOM is using "special" rounds, designed to create more damage and better results than typically used by our Armed Forces.
As for my credentials, I listed them in another thread, under "Instructors Corner", but I will repeat them again for you.
Yes, I've worked as an EMT (National Registry) and in ER's. I've dealt with gun shot wounds on more than one occasion.
May I ask your credentials Sir? (Besides your "Instructor" title.)
SGB
New member
Actualy I am (as is most of the LE community) a Dr. Gary Roberts fan boy, though his work does support Dr. Facklers. Your Strasbourg test is unauthored and can not be validated or verified. "Ballistic Pressure Wave Theory" is commonly known as hydrostatic shock and while posing some incapacitation value in HIGH VELOCITY rifle ammunition due to the tearing of tissue as it reaches the threshold of it's elasticity it presents none in handgun ammunition. Further what relation do you claim "Ballistic Pressure Wave Theory" has to "Frangible Ammunition" and the Strasbourg test? Where is your substantiation?
Still waiting for you to answer the questions posed. Nothing in your linkedin bio suggests you have the foggiest idea in regards to terminal ballistics. And while you served in the Army it appears you had nothing to do with SOCOM as you've insinuated.
SGB
New member
You're still deflecting, now answer my original questions. As to your credentials ...... I'm failing to see anything other that what you did in the army, while I thank you for your service those are not Instructor or any other type of credentials. They don't even support your insinuation of serving with SOCOM.
I'm not going to perpetrate further deflection by answering any question you post until you've answered the questions already posed to you my disparaging friend.
Steven Harder
New member
SGB - YGPM!
That will give you a little more info.
That will give you a little more info.
jcdrake1988
New member
I load with jhp's in one magazine and zombie's in the other but I know a lot of people that get Glaser saftey slugs and make them their first two rounds out just for the tissue damage they inflict and they wont over penetrate
Whatever you carry it must penetrate deep enough to hit blood vessels, nerves and organs to cause the person or animal to stop. This may mean the bullet will have to penetrate bone, cell phone or wallet to get to these vital areas, and heavier bullets seem to do that best.
With my .45 acp I carry 230 grain bullets made by Hornady, but I have some FMJ FP of the same weight that I believe would also cause a stop.
You have to have faith in your equipment, when the bad guy is pointing a gun your way, you do not want to have anything going through your mind but front sight and press the trigger.
Your training will kick in, now the only question is will the bullet you picked do the job?
With my .45 acp I carry 230 grain bullets made by Hornady, but I have some FMJ FP of the same weight that I believe would also cause a stop.
You have to have faith in your equipment, when the bad guy is pointing a gun your way, you do not want to have anything going through your mind but front sight and press the trigger.
Your training will kick in, now the only question is will the bullet you picked do the job?
FrangibleBullets.Com
New member
Good frangible ammunition will defeat class 2 body armor but not class 3. Only carry HP frangibles as FP will penetrate too much. If you load your own, DO NOT CRIMP, NONE at all.
Captain @ FrangibleBullets.Com
CharlesMorrison
Banned
I have Golden Saber 124+p's in my Glock 17 and my Ruger p95 ( the tank gun )!
