Driving past schools with my gun on me?

[GregsSmiths]

I drive by a school every day on the way to work. The school is on the corner of two streets with a stop sign for cross traffic.The building at one point is no more than 60 feet from the road and 100 feet from the cross road. What happens if I'm pulled over in front of this school and carring my legal concealed weapon on me. Am I in BIG trouble or what?

 

[uscg4good]

Hmm, I could be wrong but unless you're actually on school property...

 

[BlueMR2]

The way it's worded in the Ohio manual that I have, it says CCW not allowed in school buildings, on property and at activities (paraphrased). With an exception of allowing drop-off of child (IIRC, you have to stay in the car, but can go on the property for that sole purpose).

I HAVE heard things on the news about "National law stating no guns within 1000 feet of schools", but haven't been able to locate said law anywhere. News media got it wrong again, or am I missing something?

 

[santa]

as i understand FEDERAL law if you have a licence to carry issued by the state where the school is you are ok under FEDERAL law to drive or walk by a school. there is a thread on this very subject. state laws differ on gun possession on school grounds. it is my understanding that for example in oregon you may possess a firearm on school property if you have a concealed carry permit. i think utah is the same. here in washington i can possess a concealed handgun on school property only when picking up or dropping off a student. other states flat out ban gun possession on school grounds. in my opinion you are ok as long as you are not on school property. the best thing is talking to a knowledgable lawyer thats well versed in firearms law.

 

[Curmudgeon]

I drive by a school every day on the way to work. The school is on the corner of two streets with a stop sign for cross traffic.The building at one point is no more than 60 feet from the road and 100 feet from the cross road. What happens if I'm pulled over in front of this school and carring my legal concealed weapon on me. Am I in BIG trouble or what?

You do not state whether or not you are in possession of a PA LTCF. I hope you have yours, or at least a permit/license from any other state, or your travel while carrying would be illegal, regardless of any school zones or federal laws.

Your PA LTCF allows you to be within the 1000' Gun Free School Zone under USC Title 18, Ch 44, 922(q)(2)(b)(ii)...

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 922

§ 922. Unlawful acts

...

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

Make sense? :wink:

Edited to add... here is the link to the United States Code, Title 18, Chapter 44, containing the GFSZ Act along with other relevant Federal firearms laws... Link Removed

.

 

[fuhr52]

In Oregon as long as you have a permit you are leagal under state law. That being said some schools have a policy that states no weapons. But concealed means concealed, if by chance you are discovered to be armed, you must leave or be cited for truspass.

 

[BlueMR2]

Edited to add... here is the link to the United States Code, Title 18, Chapter 44, containing the GFSZ Act along with other relevant Federal firearms laws... Link Removed

Yikes, that's a nasty bit of law seeing as you could be WELL within 1000' of a school before even knowing it's a school. Not to mention that there's a school on practically every corner (at least where I live!). That right there pretty much makes Open Carry impossible (even though it's legal, through lack of legislation about it, in my state).

Also, the part about being not just unloaded, but *locked* could catch out a LOT of sportsmen since there aren't any "rifle" permits to be had, sport shooting is not "hunting", and few if any rifle cases I've seen are even designed to have the ability to be locked. The state law says that if it's in the trunk, or a closed case (doesn't have to be locked) and unloaded that you're OK.

Confusing since the state law supposedly overrides the National one (unloaded and closed case allowed instead of requiring unloaded and locked) for normal transport, but it looks like when you go through a school zone that the national law then overrides the state law? Argh. :-(

*EDIT*

Actually, it appears that state law still holds precedence in allowing sportsmen to transport *intra*state with it unloaded and in a closed case. The Federal 1000' school zone talks about the firearms moving in *inter*state commerce. The "has moved in" part is a bit vague. Has mine ever moved interstate? I have no way of knowing for sure. Have I moved it interstate, nope, never have. If I do ever move it interstate, then do I suddenly always fall under the 1000' school zone when I didn't before? Yuck. Perfect example of how to take something that should be simple and muck it up so nobody can understand it.

 

[BlueMR2]

Oh, it just gets better and better! Another section state:

"Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console."

This would indicate that, unless the state says otherwise, you can carry the firearm from one lawful place TO another lawful place if it's not directly accessible. That's in conflict with the wording of the 1000' school safety zone. One says you can't do it while another explicitly allows it. This is terrible. The federal firearms rules appear to be one contradiction after another!

At least it looks like you can be safe by having your CCW for handguns and always have long guns unloaded and locked up, preferably in a separate compartment in the vehicle.

 

[GregsSmiths]

Yes , I have a permit to CC and my sidearm is always loaded as a unloaded gun will get you killed under bad conditions.So if I understand this right,even though I'm within 1000 ft of the school,as long as I have a permit,it's OK. This school is only one block away from my house and I often walk my dog past said stop sign in front of the school.This is why I'm so concerned.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Yes , I have a permit to CC and my sidearm is always loaded as a unloaded gun will get you killed under bad conditions.So if I understand this right,even though I'm within 1000 ft of the school,as long as I have a permit,it's OK. This school is only one block away from my house and I often walk my dog past said stop sign in front of the school.This is why I'm so concerned.

Yes, as long as you have your PA License To Carry Firearms, you are legal within the 1000' GFSZ for schools in PA. Walking, driving, shopping, playing, dining, carrying open or concealed, does not matter, you are good-to-go.

Just to make sure I'm being thorough about all this, here is the PA statute regarding firearms and school property...

18 Pa.C.S. § 912: Possession of weapon on school property

(a) Definition.-- Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.-- A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense.-- It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

The above reference found here... 18 Pa.C.S. § 912: Possession of weapon on school property

:biggrin:
.

 

[mrjam2jab]

Oh, it just gets better and better! Another section state:

"Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console."

This would indicate that, unless the state says otherwise, you can carry the firearm from one lawful place TO another lawful place if it's not directly accessible. That's in conflict with the wording of the 1000' school safety zone. One says you can't do it while another explicitly allows it. This is terrible. The federal firearms rules appear to be one contradiction after another!

At least it looks like you can be safe by having your CCW for handguns and always have long guns unloaded and locked up, preferably in a separate compartment in the vehicle.

That particular statute is Link Removed...usually called Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA). Thats the one that makes it travel to different states and not have to be concerned with the laws of the states between you origination and destination that do not honor your carry permit.

 

[GregsSmiths]

OK, so I'm legal to drive by but now for the twist . That school is a polling place. I vote there every Nov. and like I said in the original post, I don't go anywhere not packing iron. So to keep legal I must lock the gun up inside my locked car as I go in to vote?

 

[mrjam2jab]

OK, so I'm legal to drive by but now for the twist . That school is a polling place. I vote there every Nov. and like I said in the original post, I don't go anywhere not packing iron. So to keep legal I must lock the gun up inside my locked car as I go in to vote?

Correct....and park in the street. My polling place is also a school.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Oh, it just gets better and better! Another section state:

"Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console."

This would indicate that, unless the state says otherwise, you can carry the firearm from one lawful place TO another lawful place if it's not directly accessible. That's in conflict with the wording of the 1000' school safety zone. One says you can't do it while another explicitly allows it. This is terrible. The federal firearms rules appear to be one contradiction after another!

At least it looks like you can be safe by having your CCW for handguns and always have long guns unloaded and locked up, preferably in a separate compartment in the vehicle.

I would suggest you read the Federal laws a bit more carefully before attempting a reply.

First 18 USC 926a is titled Interstate Transportation of Firearms and only applies when traveling interstate - between states.

Second, 18 USC 926a contains almost the exact same requirements as one of the exceptions to the Federal Gun Free School Zone Law: that is the gun must be unloaded and locked in a case or trunk of a vehicle, although the GFSZA says unloaded and locked in a case.

 

[ohio pat]

school zones

I drive by a school every day on the way to work. The school is on the corner of two streets with a stop sign for cross traffic.The building at one point is no more than 60 feet from the road and 100 feet from the cross road. What happens if I'm pulled over in front of this school and carring my legal concealed weapon on me. Am I in BIG trouble or what?

In Ohio, if you have a permit, you are not in violation of the gun free zone if you drive by the school, take your children to the door of the school but do not enter the building. You cannot go to school events or get on a school bus.

Hope i covered all of the points, always consult legal counsel for all questons.

Pat Olvey

 

[Felix]

You got a lot of answers from folks telling you what the laws are outside of PA but looks like Curmudgeon is a resident and pretty knowledgable about the laws in your state. You might also want to read the Eagle2009 thread about the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act of 1995. Lot of food for thought in that lengthy post...along with plenty of anecdotal evidence that you can be right by the law but still get busted in a school zone by overzealous or undereducated cops. Sure got my attention since I drive within 1,000 feet of a school daily on a public road.

 

[ohio pat]

polling place

You bring up a very interesting item. The school is now being used as a polling place.

The school is now a governmental area. So, the answer is no unless the board of elections has said it is ok.

Think about the post office, it is a governmental area also, and so is the state drivers license bureau office.

There can be alot of pit falls to watch out for.

Pat Olvey
email [email protected]

 

[mrjam2jab]

You bring up a very interesting item. The school is now being used as a polling place.

The school is now a governmental area. So, the answer is no unless the board of elections has said it is ok.

Think about the post office, it is a governmental area also, and so is the state drivers license bureau office.

There can be alot of pit falls to watch out for.

Pat Olvey
email [email protected]

In PA, a polling place and the DMV are not prohibited locations. A polling place IN a school is as PA's school prohibition does not stipulate "while school is in session"...

18 Pa.C.S. § 912: Possession of weapon on school property
(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.
(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.
(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

 

[ohio pat]

school zones and other prohibited places

Here is a link for information regarding HR218 National Carry Permits
Link Removed

I am attaching a portion of the federal law governing the National Carry Permits.

Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

The states that do not prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns on governmentally used premises makes it more confusing for a ccw person who is traveling. What a wonderful world we live in.

I was in St Louis, Mo and my wife and I decided to go downtown to a park. It turned out to be a federal park. While we were standing in line a park ranger walked passed us advising that we were going through a metal detector. I was armed and got the park rangers attention. The ranger had me go to her supervisor’s desk, supervisor checked my identification and had me sign a register book then permitted me to enter the underground park.

Just and fyi

Pat Olvey
email [email protected]

 

[robmcd]

Here's a link to the Gun Free School Zone Act of 1996 showing the original language that was changed after the original was struck down by the court.

Here's a letter from the BATF answering whether the license must be issued by the jurisdiction which the school zone lies in.

It's interesting that the exception may allow you to carry inside the 1000' buffer, but it's still illegal for you to discharge it unless you're on private property.

The real hiccup is in states that allow you to own a rifle or shotgun without being licensed at all.