Damn it all to hell

[BUmmedic]

I like my XDm's... both are 3.8" compacts, one in .45ACP and one in 9mm. I shoot both fairly well. I carry +P HST ammo in both, and both are comfortable and manageable in my hands. These have been my carry firearms (easy because my Old Faithful IWB works for both).

Until today. Shot my newly acquired Ruger SR9c (new to me... used and acquired in a trade), and damn if I wasn't drilling the bullseye over and over again. Gun seemed to feel better in my hands. Drawing from my IWB, felt that I could get my grip correct and sights on target more quickly and more easily and more reliably. Definitely feel as though there is more felt recoil than the XDm (but it is a lighter slide).

That being said... in my 2+1 drills (two COM and one to the head), I was still shooting my XDm better. Perhaps it was the easier recoil allowing for more accurate and quick follow-up shots, I don't know.

Here's the question... choose the one that seems to be more accurate in my hands when aiming at a bullseye and not concentrating on speed or follow-up shots? Or the one that I can get on target with accurate hits in a "situation"?

Funny how those drills will make you realize how a smaller hole to a vital organ is more important than a bigger hole that missed.

Wish ammo wasn't such a bear to find... I haven't gone out shooting in a while, and damn it felt good. Need to put some lead down range side-by-side and ultimately decide which one I perform better with.

 

[S&W645]

I like my XDm's... both are 3.8" compacts, one in .45ACP and one in 9mm. I shoot both fairly well. I carry +P HST ammo in both, and both are comfortable and manageable in my hands. These have been my carry firearms (easy because my Old Faithful IWB works for both).

Until today. Shot my newly acquired Ruger SR9c (new to me... used and acquired in a trade), and damn if I wasn't drilling the bullseye over and over again. Gun seemed to feel better in my hands. Drawing from my IWB, felt that I could get my grip correct and sights on target more quickly and more easily and more reliably. Definitely feel as though there is more felt recoil than the XDm (but it is a lighter slide).

That being said... in my 2+1 drills (two COM and one to the head), I was still shooting my XDm better. Perhaps it was the easier recoil allowing for more accurate and quick follow-up shots, I don't know.

Here's the question... choose the one that seems to be more accurate in my hands when aiming at a bullseye and not concentrating on speed or follow-up shots? Or the one that I can get on target with accurate hits in a "situation"?

Funny how those drills will make you realize how a smaller hole to a vital organ is more important than a bigger hole that missed.

Wish ammo wasn't such a bear to find... I haven't gone out shooting in a while, and damn it felt good. Need to put some lead down range side-by-side and ultimately decide which one I perform better with.

The one you can put the rounds into the target in the least amount of time is the one to carry. And if it is .45ACP vs 9mm, I'd go with the .45ACP.

 

[BUmmedic]

Hit head with every shot with the 9mm. Missed once with 45ACP. COM shots were grouped better with 9mm, too. Again, things that practice could probably improve on, but ammo availability and pricing sux right now. 9mm it is... for now.

 

[alternety]

If you really want to be annoyed, fire a Boberg. Currently 9mm only (real small and a bit larger versions available), but something larger caliber soon. Handles heavy loads and has excellent accuracy. More energy at the muzzle than other comparable size guns (see web site to understand why). Very low recoil contributes to serious multi-shot accuracy.

Once youve tried Boberg; you won't go back. No - I am not affiliated, but I have some of them. An amazing piece of machinery. Pricy, but unlike anything you have used.

 

[wolf_fire]

Personally, I would carry the one that you can hit the ocular cavity with quickly after two to COM failed. Reasoning is you've really poked the bear at this point and need to put the bear down. If you can't get the ocular cavity shot down quickly after the first two, you may not have a chance to.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

Just go straight COM and unload all 16 rounds (if that's what it takes).


Sent from behind enemy lines.

 

[wolf_fire]

Just go straight COM and unload all 16 rounds (if that's what it takes).


Sent from behind enemy lines.

Yeah, that works great most of the time, but what if the the shots to COM didn't work because the BG is wearing an armored vest?

 

[jcreek]

Just go straight COM and unload all 16 rounds (if that's what it takes).


Sent from behind enemy lines.

Yeah, that works great most of the time, but what if the the shots to COM didn't work because the BG is wearing an armored vest?

You ever been shot wearing an "armored" vest? Unless that vest is made out of AR500 you're going to feel everyone and 16 COM is definitely going to put you on the ground. Some would even most likely penetrate. Vests aren't made to take more than one or two shots to the same area.

 

[golocx4]

Here's the question... choose the one that seems to be more accurate in my hands when aiming at a bullseye and not concentrating on speed or follow-up shots? Or the one that I can get on target with accurate hits in a "situation"?

For SD either. If you are going to a competition, take the one that gives you a group in the bulls eye.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

Yeah, that works great most of the time, but what if the the shots to COM didn't work because the BG is wearing an armored vest?

The chances of that are slim to none. If that be the case though, just aim higher or take them out at the knees! I don't think they are going to be very "happy" to get 16 rounds of .40 cal center mass!

 

[wolf_fire]

You ever been shot wearing an "armored" vest? Unless that vest is made out of AR500 you're going to feel everyone and 16 COM is definitely going to put you on the ground. Some would even most likely penetrate. Vests aren't made to take more than one or two shots to the same area.

Just had a policeman critically wounded in Pittsburgh that he and his partner shot the BG 15 times, 11 were COM (I know this because I know the officer who first arrived at the scene after this happened)... The BG was still able to get off many rounds and critically injure Auge's partner. The BG was not killed.

If this BG, not wearing a vest could still get off that many rounds while being shot, the ocular cavity is a great place to practice shooting. Of course this BG was higher than a kite, but are you going to take that chance that the BG you go up against isn't that high? So let's add into the mix, a BG higher than a kite AND wearing a vest... you're toast if all you do is go COM. If COM isn't working, you go ocular cavity to stop the threat.

 

[jcreek]

You ever been shot wearing an "armored" vest? Unless that vest is made out of AR500 you're going to feel everyone and 16 COM is definitely going to put you on the ground. Some would even most likely penetrate. Vests aren't made to take more than one or two shots to the same area.

Just had a policeman critically wounded in Pittsburgh that he and his partner shot the BG 15 times, 11 were COM (I know this because I know the officer who first arrived at the scene after this happened)... The BG was still able to get off many rounds and critically injure Auge's partner. The BG was not killed.

If this BG, not wearing a vest could still get off that many rounds while being shot, the ocular cavity is a great place to practice shooting. Of course this BG was higher than a kite, but are you going to take that chance that the BG you go up against isn't that high? So let's add into the mix, a BG higher than a kite AND wearing a vest... you're toast if all you do is go COM. If COM isn't working, you go ocular cavity to stop the threat.

I don't disagree with you at all. A shot to the t-box formed by the eyes and nose almost guarantees severing the brain stem and immediately incapacitating your target. In COM doesn't work always go for the head if you can. I was just saying that even with a vest on, if you take 16 shots COM you're going to be at least temporally out of the fight. You're going to have several cracked ribs, massive bruising, and having a hard time breathing.

With that said, I'd like links to your story if you have them. I don't quite believe that a BG was shot 11 times COM and lived. Especially if he was high. Those same drugs that keep BGs shooting while they're being shot (usually meth or cocaine) are the same ones that will dramatically increase the rate at which you bleed out.

 

[wolf_fire]

I don't disagree with you at all. A shot to the t-box formed by the eyes and nose almost guarantees severing the brain stem and immediately incapacitating your target. In COM doesn't work always go for the head if you can. I was just saying that even with a vest on, if you take 16 shots COM you're going to be at least temporally out of the fight. You're going to have several cracked ribs, massive bruising, and having a hard time breathing.

With that said, I'd like links to your story if you have them. I don't quite believe that a BG was shot 11 times COM and lived. Especially if he was high. Those same drugs that keep BGs shooting while they're being shot (usually meth or cocaine) are the same ones that will dramatically increase the rate at which you bleed out.

Here's a link to the story. You'll also notice in the story the Pittsburgh police were questioning their ammunition, since a similar event happened earlier this year. From what I've been told from another officer, the police sent a sample batch of ammo to the FBI to have tested once again. The FBI came back with "it works as it should and as expected". Then why did he not drop one might ask. The reason is, even if you hit someone in the heart or lung, they still have about 30 seconds before they will bleed out or can't get enough oxygen to the brain. The ammo did what it was supposed to do. The only shots that will literally drop someone in their tracks is if you hit the spinal cord, brain stem, or brain.

You are correct though... in MOST situations that many shots COM will stop someone from bring a threat. Just not all. This is why I always practice to go to ocular cavity after placing two in COM. While being a rarity, I feel it still important to train for it.

Link Removed

 

[r1derbike]

Yep, a shot or several to the fuse box should work just fine. It even works on squirrels with my Marauder, one shot to the fuse box, and one anchored, humanely killed tree rat.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

"Ocular cavity" disruption(?) is fine as long as its practiced on mobile targets.
Most people don't stand still during a gun fight. They also tend to seek cover if possible so train efficiently for the above.
Shooting holes in a stationary paper target is not going to be effective training.


Sent from behind enemy lines.

 

[jcreek]

I don't disagree with you at all. A shot to the t-box formed by the eyes and nose almost guarantees severing the brain stem and immediately incapacitating your target. In COM doesn't work always go for the head if you can. I was just saying that even with a vest on, if you take 16 shots COM you're going to be at least temporally out of the fight. You're going to have several cracked ribs, massive bruising, and having a hard time breathing.

With that said, I'd like links to your story if you have them. I don't quite believe that a BG was shot 11 times COM and lived. Especially if he was high. Those same drugs that keep BGs shooting while they're being shot (usually meth or cocaine) are the same ones that will dramatically increase the rate at which you bleed out.

Here's a link to the story. You'll also notice in the story the Pittsburgh police were questioning their ammunition, since a similar event happened earlier this year. From what I've been told from another officer, the police sent a sample batch of ammo to the FBI to have tested once again. The FBI came back with "it works as it should and as expected". Then why did he not drop one might ask. The reason is, even if you hit someone in the heart or lung, they still have about 30 seconds before they will bleed out or can't get enough oxygen to the brain. The ammo did what it was supposed to do. The only shots that will literally drop someone in their tracks is if you hit the spinal cord, brain stem, or brain.

You are correct though... in MOST situations that many shots COM will stop someone from bring a threat. Just not all. This is why I always practice to go to ocular cavity after placing two in COM. While being a rarity, I feel it still important to train for it.

Link Removed

I'm very aware that even after taking several shot to COM targets can continue fighting until there's not enough blood pressure to make it to the brain. What surprises me is that usually after the 30 or so seconds of continued fighting the target bleeds out and dies quickly after losing consciousness especially after being shot that many times. The EMTs that saved him must have been extremely good at their job and quick to get there.

Thanks for the link by the way, appreciate it,

 

[nontechguy]

If you really want to be annoyed, fire a Boberg. Currently 9mm only (real small and a bit larger versions available), but something larger caliber soon. Handles heavy loads and has excellent accuracy. More energy at the muzzle than other comparable size guns (see web site to understand why). Very low recoil contributes to serious multi-shot accuracy.

Once youve tried Boberg; you won't go back. No - I am not affiliated, but I have some of them. An amazing piece of machinery. Pricy, but unlike anything you have used.

From what I've read, they are ammo sensitive. Boberg XR9-L Review | The Firearm Blog

 

[wolf_fire]

"Ocular cavity" disruption(?) is fine as long as its practiced on mobile targets.
Most people don't stand still during a gun fight. They also tend to seek cover if possible so train efficiently for the above.
Shooting holes in a stationary paper target is not going to be effective training.


Sent from behind enemy lines.

Excellent advice. Our range has something called bottles and plates. The stack bottles and plates on a moving chain that moves side to side and there's a small competition to see who can hit the most with a certain number of rounds in a certain time frame. The chain doesn't have a constant speed and it changes direction. I haven't found anything around me that simulates shooting with movement on such a small target other than this.

Does anyone know of any device that mimics bobbing and weaving action?

 

[wolf_fire]

I'm very aware that even after taking several shot to COM targets can continue fighting until there's not enough blood pressure to make it to the brain. What surprises me is that usually after the 30 or so seconds of continued fighting the target bleeds out and dies quickly after losing consciousness especially after being shot that many times. The EMTs that saved him must have been extremely good at their job and quick to get there.

Thanks for the link by the way, appreciate it,

You're welcome. .