Common Sense, reasonable regulation, etc...

[B2Tall]

The SCOTUS is the final arbiter of the meaning of the Constitution. As of today, the SCOTUS has held that the 2nd amendment protects the rights of individuals to own firearms of common usage for home self-defense. Nothing more.

Your wish that it was more doesn't change what it is.

So when we discuss whether training requirements or any other limitations on firearm ownership is appropriate, we must do so in the context of what is rather than what we might wishy things to be.

Right now, ownership of a firearm beyond that specified for by the SCOTUS is a privilege whether you like it or not. Should that privilege be restricted by required training of some sort is not a question that can be answered by claiming the privilege can't be restricted because it is a secured individual right. It presently isn't.

It's no use, nogods. They'll never be able to see the forest because of all the trees that are in the way. This "Any Weapon, Anytime, Anywhere" crew just doesn't get it. They don't understand that they're part of the lunatic fringe and not part of American society as a whole. In their zeal to defend their views on 2A, they're willing (if not eager) to trample the rest of the Constitution and the rights and wishes of the citizens of this country. Maybe one day they'll finally understand that ultimately it's the people of this country that dictate the laws through the election of officials that have like-minded views. I don't like the gun laws in Illinois, Hawaii, NYC, etc. but apparently the majority of the people that live there do like them otherwise they'd have elected pro-gun officials.

Like my signature line says, I support the entire Constitution.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Here's another group of lunatics:

Common Sense Gun Control? - THR

OMG! They are everywhere.... the lunatics are running the asylum... run for your lives, they are going to shoot you with their grenade launchers, run over you with their tanks, burn your bodies with their flamethrowers and then turn your ashes into glass with their nukes! <--- and that's just the grade schoolers!

Somebody really should pass a law, quick! :sarcastic:

You know, maybe some of the "pro-Constitution" folks here should move to Mexico. Seems like Mexican gun laws are just what the doctor ordered for them. Mexico must be a much safer place than the US, where the lunatics are allowed in most states to run amuck, endangering the lives of those around them... right?

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Today, notwithstanding the constitutional right, arms possession in Mexico is severely restricted by a wide network of laws. Article 160 of the Federal Penal Code authorizes government employees to carry guns. Article 161 requires a license to carry or sell handguns. Article 162 provides penalties for violations, and also bans the stockpiling of arms without permission. Article 163 states that handguns may only be sold by mercantile establishments, not by individuals. Further, handgun carry permit applicants must post a bond, must prove their need, and must supply five character references.

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[Treo]

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

 

[Midnight]

In my state, it is LAW that carry permit holders cannot carry past signs. "Common sense," right? Respecting property owners, right? They might as well hang this sign up:

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You think a law is going to stop criminals? Seriously?

 

[NavyLCDR]

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Spoken like a true lunatic! :biggrin:

 

[nogods]

In my state, it is LAW that carry permit holders cannot carry past signs. "Common sense," right? Respecting property owners, right? They might as well hang this sign up:

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You think a law is going to stop criminals? Seriously?

In my state, private property owners take steps to protect their premises from crime. We don't depend on the general public to arm themselves while on our business premises so they can play ad hoc security guards while on our premises.

That fact that a private citizen may be armed on our premises has never been shown to dissuade a crackhead from attempting a holdup.

 

[nogods]

And that's where you and I disagree. You seem to think that rights only exist if some government authority says they exist or if the government honors those rights. I am glad the founding fathers didn't feel the same way as you, otherwise we would still be under British rule. The founding fathers recognized that certain rights exist whether or not the government recognizes those rights or honors those rights.

If the government ever does come knocking on your door to confiscate your guns, are you just going to hand them over to the nice government official and say, "Well, dang, I sure wish I had the right to keep this...?"

So lets test this theory of yours.

Take you gun to a place where the law presently prohibits possession of a firearm and lets see how well that works out for you.

I'm guessing you'll hand over you weapons and suddenly become a believer in the system. You'll probably hire a lawyer and work through the system to get your guns back.

Or will you instead start a shootout while yelling "don't tread on me!!"

 

[NavyLCDR]

So lets test this theory of yours.

Take you gun to a place where the law presently prohibits possession of a firearm and lets see how well that works out for you.

I'm guessing you'll hand over you weapons and suddenly become a believer in the system. You'll probably hire a lawyer and work through the system to get your guns back.

Or will you instead start a shootout while yelling "don't tread on me!!"

How well did things work out for Heller and McDonald, hmmmm? You do recognize those two names? Heller and McDonald recognized that they had rights protected under the Constitution that their governments were not recognizing and took their cases to the Supreme Court and won big landmark decisions in all of our favors. Now, if Heller and McDonald, and indeed the Founding Fathers had the same mindset as you and B2Tall, none of us would have handguns because we would still be under the British handgun ban! If Heller and McDonald were of the same mindset as you, there would still be a handgun ban in place in Washington D.C. and any city or state could ban any firearm they wanted, wherever they wanted to.

I am glad that the majority of Americans are not of your mindset... that the government is simply free to do whatever it wants to, under the false banner of "the majority wants it." Again, I point to Obama health care as a prime example of the government doing whatever the hell it wants to, claiming "the majority wants it".

In my state, private property owners take steps to protect their premises from crime.

Yeah, right. 1. What state? 2. What steps?

 

[NavyLCDR]

In my state, private property owners take steps to protect their premises from crime.

You mean like this?:

Wal-Mart Security Employees Fired for Disarming Store Gunman

That certainly makes me feel safe....

 

[nogods]

How well did things work out for Heller and McDonald, hmmmm? You do recognize those two names? Heller and McDonald recognized that they had rights protected under the Constitution that their governments were not recognizing and took their cases to the Supreme Court and won big landmark decisions in all of our favors. Now, if Heller and McDonald, and indeed the Founding Fathers had the same mindset as you and B2Tall, none of us would have handguns because we would still be under the British handgun ban! If Heller and McDonald were of the same mindset as you, there would still be a handgun ban in place in Washington D.C. and any city or state could ban any firearm they wanted, wherever they wanted to.

I am glad that the majority of Americans are not of your mindset... that the government is simply free to do whatever it wants to, under the false banner of "the majority wants it." Again, I point to Obama health care as a prime example of the government doing whatever the hell it wants to, claiming "the majority wants it".

So...then...you don't own firearms for the purpose of using them against government employees who come knocking on your door to collect your firearms...instead you'll do just as Heller and McDonald did...you'll obey the law and work through the system to resolve your dispute with our elected government.

None of us has suggested anything else. The fact that we don't agree with your "any gun, any where, any time" position has nothing to do with the issue.

We can discuss "what should be" but we can't have an intelligent discussion if people are going to insist "what should be" is "what is."

You, like me, apparently believe in the system and you are presently, and will in the future will continue, submitting to it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So...then...you don't own firearms for the purpose of using them against government employees who come knocking on your door to collect your firearms...instead you'll do just as Heller and McDonald did...you'll obey the law and work through the system to resolve your dispute with our elected government.

None of us has suggested anything else. The fact that we don't agree with your "any gun, any where, any time" position has nothing to do with the issue.

We can discuss "what should be" but we can't have an intelligent discussion if people are going to insist "what should be" is "what is."

You, like me, apparently believe in the system and you are presently, and will in the future will continue, submitting to it.

What you are speaking of above depends upon the severity of the situation at hand. Do I own guns for the specific purpose of shooting at the government? NO.

If government agents come knocking at my door to confiscate my guns because the government has put into effect a firearms ban without repealing the 2nd Amendment, will I hand over my guns to them willingly? NO.

Will I die attempting to retain my right to keep and bear arms if the government bans guns and tries to confiscate them from me without repealing the 2nd Amendment? Probably.

If the 3/4 majority of states in this country repeal the 2nd Amendment, will I seek residence in another country? Definitely.

I honestly don't think any of the above would ever happen, but anything is possible.

I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies both foreign AND DOMESTIC and to obey the orders of the President of the United States. If those two terms ever conflict with each other, I feel my duty is to the Constitution first.

 

[Lakeland Man]

If the 3/4 majority of states in this country repeal the 2nd Amendment, will I seek residence in another country? Definitely.


I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies both foreign AND DOMESTIC and to obey the orders of the President of the United States. If those two terms ever conflict with each other, I feel my duty is to the Constitution first.

Those two statements conflict with each other. Your oath, like mine, was to support and defend the constitution. If the constitution is changed by a 3/4th majority of the states, your oath is still valid. You swore to support and defend, not to support and defend the constitution the way YOU think it should be.

 

[Midnight]

That fact that a private citizen may be armed on our premises has never been shown to dissuade a crackhead from attempting a holdup.

The point is not that an armed populace will be a deterrent. The point is that the crackhead will have his head blown away before he can kill someone. Has anyone ever tried to rob your premises? Here's a good story from my own home state.

 

[nogods]

The point is not that an armed populace will be a deterrent. The point is that the crackhead will have his head blown away before he can kill someone.

I prefer to determine on my premises who will do the "blowing away" and under what circumstances that will happen.

I can't check the references, the experience, the competence, or impose my armed robbery policies on every customers who thinks I need their help keeping an armed robber from getting away with money that can be replaced.

I can't be filter out customers with defective weapons that fire unexpectedly, or customers who can't seem to secure their firearm on their body to prevent unintentional discharges.

What I can do is prohibit customers from having a weapon on them while on my premises and hire competent security personal who are obligated to following my customer safety plan to deal with anyone who ignores my rules, instead of expecting each individual customer to make separate and distinct determinations of those matters.

 

[Midnight]

What I can do is prohibit customers from having a weapon on them while on my premises and hire competent security personal who are obligated to following my customer safety plan to deal with anyone who ignores my rules, instead of expecting each individual customer to make separate and distinct determinations of those matters.

You're a hypocrite. Business owners like you claim that safety for their patrons is of the upmost importance, but then you don't actually do anything to ensure safety. Unless you're doing pat-downs and using metal detectors and x-rays for everyone who goes into your establishment, you're not really doing anything to ensure the safety of patrons. On the other hand, your silly little signs and half-way trained security guards aren't going to do anything to stop a madman. People like you make me sick. GTFO.

 

[nogods]

If government agents come knocking at my door to confiscate my guns because the government has put into effect a firearms ban without repealing the 2nd Amendment, will I hand over my guns to them willingly? NO.

Will I die attempting to retain my right to keep and bear arms if the government bans guns and tries to confiscate them from me without repealing the 2nd Amendment? Probably.

So instead of doing as Heller and McDonald, you'd take matters into your own hands and fight to the death!

But if you thought the law was unconstitutional, why not work your claims through the system like Heller and McDonald did?

Now lets be serious, I'll bet if a government agent read your post on this forum, improperly concluded you were a threat, lied to secured a subpoena for your isp, then secured your name and address from your isp, then lied to obtained a search warrant to seize your guns, we will not be reading about a firefight at your house.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Those two statements conflict with each other. Your oath, like mine, was to support and defend the constitution. If the constitution is changed by a 3/4th majority of the states, your oath is still valid. You swore to support and defend, not to support and defend the constitution the way YOU think it should be.

Basic human rights come before the Constitution.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You're a hypocrite. Business owners like you claim that safety for their patrons is of the upmost importance, but then you don't actually do anything to ensure safety. Unless you're doing pat-downs and using metal detectors and x-rays for everyone who goes into your establishment, you're not really doing anything to ensure the safety of patrons. On the other hand, your silly little signs and half-way trained security guards aren't going to do anything to stop a madman. People like you make me sick. GTFO.

Sounds to me like nogods wants nobody to be armed but himself and the criminals. He belongs with the Brady Campaign.

 

[nogods]

You're a hypocrite. Business owners like you claim that safety for their patrons is of the upmost importance, but then you don't actually do anything to ensure safety. Unless you're doing pat-downs and using metal detectors and x-rays for everyone who goes into your establishment, you're not really doing anything to ensure the safety of patrons. On the other hand, your silly little signs and half-way trained security guards aren't going to do anything to stop a madman. People like you make me sick. GTFO.

BANK CRIME STATISTICS (BCS)
FEDERAL INSURED FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS
JANUARY 1, 2009 – DECEMBER 31, 2009I. VIOLATIONS OF THE FEDERAL BANK ROBBERY AND INCIDENTAL CRIMES STATUTE, TITLE 18, UNITED STATES CODE, SECTION 2113

Robberies

Commercial Banks 5,316
Mutual Savings Banks 51
Savings and Loan Associations 106
Credit Unions 470
Total 5,943



Deaths

Customer 0
Employee 0
Employee Family 0
Perpetrator 21
Law Officer 0
Guard 0
Other 0
Total 21
Number of incidents in which deaths occurred: 20

Looks like our bank robbery policies are working.

If you want to be a security guard then stop by and pick up an application.

 

[Midnight]

So instead of doing as Heller and McDonald, you'd take matters into your own hands and fight to the death!

But if you thought the law was unconstitutional, why not work your claims through the system like Heller and McDonald did?

Now lets be serious, I'll bet if a government agent read your post on this forum, improperly concluded you were a threat, lied to secured a subpoena for your isp, then secured your name and address from your isp, then lied to obtained a search warrant to seize your guns, we will not be reading about a firefight at your house.

HAHAHAHAHAHA, what kind of nonsense is this? I know what it is: