CCW for the Blind

[NavyLCDR]

We were just talking about this, this weekend. Test was verbal and when it came to the course of fire the lane was empty just the instructor and a RSO they hung a line to the lane lines with a bell at the end. Jiggled the line he shot and was able to hit paper and reload was no problem..

The like link will only let me do it once, but I would like to hit it 1,000 times for you.

 

[RossA]

I was once a gun dealer and i would also refuse to sell a gun to a blind person. As a private citizen i would not sell a gun to someone incapable of following safe gun handeling procedures.

Let me get this straight. You are worried about legal liability if you qualify a blind student for a handgun license, yet you would refuse to sell a gun to a blind person and you wouldn't be afraid of liability in that? Try refusing to sell a gun to someone who is legally authorized to buy it, especially because of a disability, and that person won't just get one gun, he'll get your entire store.
And yes, I have been a lawyer for 26 years.

 

[NMCCW]

With all due respect to the blind, how does a blind man ensure that he never points the barrel at something he isn't willing to destroy, or make sure of his target and what's behind it?

 

[RossA]

While that is a legitimate concern, I would suggest that legally it is not your call. If someone is legally qualified to purchase an item, it is not up to a merchant to unilaterally decide not to sell to him.

 

[NavyLCDR]

While that is a legitimate concern, I would suggest that legally it is not your call. If someone is legally qualified to purchase an item, it is not up to a merchant to unilaterally decide not to sell to him.

Actually yes, it is up to a merchant to unilaterally decide not to sell to them. It's the merchant's business, the merchant's store, and the merchant's property being sold until the buyer pays for it.

 

[RossA]

OK, I won't argue the law with you. Maybe you can remove my legal ignorance by pointing me to the law which keeps you from losing a lawsuit when you refuse to sell a product to a person who is not legally disqualified from owning one. Or losing the suit by the Feds for depriving someone in a protected class of his civil rights.
I'm waiting for the legal citations.

 

[RossA]

OK, I won't argue the law with you. Maybe you can remove my legal ignorance by pointing me to the law which keeps you from losing a lawsuit when you refuse to sell a product to a person who is not legally disqualified from owning one. Or losing the suit by the Feds for depriving someone in a protected class of his civil rights.
I'm waiting for the legal citations.

 

[NavyLCDR]

OK, I won't argue the law with you. Maybe you can remove my legal ignorance by pointing me to the law which keeps you from losing a lawsuit when you refuse to sell a product to a person who is not legally disqualified from owning one. Or losing the suit by the Feds for depriving someone in a protected class of his civil rights.
I'm waiting for the legal citations.

In order to win a lawsuit, the plaintiff would have to prove that a law was violated. So your challenge to point you to a law which keeps a person from losing a lawsuit is completely backwards in the legal realm. The proper challenge is to state the law upon which a lawsuit would be won. Since Glock20 is in Nebraska, let's look at Nebraska law:

Here is Nebraska State Law regarding equal enjoyment of public accommodation:
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The protected classes in Nebraska law are:

Section 20-132. Full and equal enjoyment of accommodations.

All persons within this State shall be entitled to a full and equal enjoyment of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this act, without discrimination of segregation on the grounds of race, color, sex, religion, national origin, or ancestry.

I'm not seeing physical disability protected under that law.

Now, if Glock20 happens to be in Omaha, we do have this Omaha Code:
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Sec. 13-84. - Unlawful practices.

It is an unlawful practice for any person, wholly or partially because of race, color, creed, religion, sex, marital status, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, age or disability, to do any of the following:

(a)
To deny an individual a full and equal enjoyment of any place of public accommodation;

So, Omaha Code does include disability. Now it gets interesting. First, a plaintiff would have to prove that the business was a place of public accommodation:

Sec. 13-83. - "Place of public accommodation" defined.

For the purposes of this division, the following phrase shall have the meaning ascribed to it:

Place of public accommodation: Unless the context otherwise requires, any place or business offering or holding out to the general public goods, services, privileges, facilities, advantages, and accommodations for the peace, comfort, health, welfare, and safety of the general public, and any public place providing food, shelter, recreation and amusement

If the business is a gun RANGE, then it certainly could fall under the definition of a public place providing recreation and amusement. If the business is purely a gun STORE the next question is a gun considered to be "for the peace, comfort, health, welfare, and safety of the general public." Millions of people in this country live their lives to the fullest without owning a gun. So, it would be tough, but not impossible, to convince a court that a gun store is a public accommodation. Next, Glock20 needs to revise his/her reason for not selling the gun to that particular person. Glock20 needs to base his refusal to sell based on a belief that the person would pose a danger to themselves or to the public by possessing the item being sold.

I am a 48 year old absolutely average in every way white guy. If I walked into Glock20's gun store are they required by law to sell me a gun? What if I walk in with my pants half off my rear end and pick up a handgun and point it sideways, sweeping several customers in the process, and say, "Bang, bang, bang, puttin' a cap in your a$$", is Glock20 required to sell the gun to me because I can pass the background check? No, absolutely not. Now, Glock20 feels that a blind person would present a danger to themselves and the public if they possessed a gun and refuses to sell the gun based on that belief alone. Does he have a legal and reasonable basis for that belief? I feel that, especially in Nebraska, he/she certainly does. Why doesn't any state issue a driver's license to blind people? Because the state considers them to be a danger to themselves and the public if they operate a motor vehicle on a public highway. Is that discrimination against the blind? Not yet it isn't. Now, particularly in Nebraska, that state requires vision for a concealed carry permit. So Glock20 can use that fact that it is reasonable to believe that firearms possession is a danger to the person and public because why would the state of Nebraska determine that sight is required to conceal a firearm?!? Is it because the blind person might lose it if they conceal it?

And that is why, I believe that a blind person could NOT win a lawsuit for discrimination against Glock20. "I'm not refusing to sell the blind person a gun because they are blind. I am refusing to sell them a gun because I believe they would pose a danger to themselves and the public by possessing a gun as supported by the state law prohibiting a blind person from obtaining a concealed carry permit." That being said, the blind person would certainly have a rebuttal, and might win, if they can convince the court that a reasonable person would not consider it a danger for a blind person to merely possess a gun and to base a belief of danger solely upon the person being blind is discrimination because, according to Nebraska law it is not illegal for a blind person to possess a firearm - only to carry it concealed.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Now, with all the being said, do I support or agree with Glock20's decision to not sell to a blind person or his/her fear of litigation if they do? Absolutely not.

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Especially if the buyer gave no indication as to what they were going to use the gun for.

 

[N R A]

Do we let people drive without a Drivers License? If they fail the DL test, do we let them drive anyway? The problem with this country is most everyone has no horse sense anymore. Everyone is pissing into the wind, and cannot figure out why their pants stink, and they blame everyone else for their smelly pants. They have an entitlement attitude, that says life owes them clean pants daily, for doing nothing, unable to figure out life for themselves.

Owning a gun and using a gun, comes with the responsibility to know when it is prudent to have one, and use one.

 

[RJT CCW]

We were just talking about this, this weekend. Test was verbal and when it came to the course of fire the lane was empty just the instructor and a RSO they hung a line to the lane lines with a bell at the end. Jiggled the line he shot and was able to hit paper and reload was no problem..

I personally like the accommodations you offered your student here. I just had a student who is deaf and with some minor changes to my teaching method he passed with flying colors.

 

[Quiet Observer]

Why is there a set of braille instructions at my drive up ATM?

It probably is simpler for the manufacturers to mass produce all machines with braille; one less inventory control problem. Even drive-up sites can be used for walk-up customers. Driver stops a few feet short of the machine. This protects the passenger who will be standing at the machine. The passenger (blind or sited) gets out, walks to the front of the vehicle and conducts business at the machine. The customer does not share PIN with anyone. Many ATMs have an audio jack into which a blind person could plug in an earphone to hear onscreen instructions, account balances, etc.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Owning a gun and using a gun, comes with the responsibility to know when it is prudent to have one, and use one.

And I don't see anything that would indicate why a blind person would lack such prudence. Blindness does not equal irresponsibility.

 

[N R A]

Tonight in Lincoln Ne , police encounter a man with a drawn handgun in a closed park. Park closes at dark. Police go into parks sometimes to see who to run out. Tonight they find a guy walking around with a handgun. Man ignors orders to drop gun. Man approaches officer with gun in hand. Officer draws his gun, again orders man to drop gun. No compliance with lawful order to drop the gun. Officer almost shoots the man as he walks up to him, but somehow, the officer figures out the man is deaf. A deaf guy, afraid of who knows what in a city park after closing, with his gun out of his holster for what ever level of protection he was trying to obtain, when the police officer spots him.

Man had a CC permit. 11 patrol cars responded. On the news, man was in custody as they were trying to determin what laws he broke, if any. Details are still new. Just happened a couple hours ago.

This is what happened to a deaf person with a CC permit. Not my student.

I would need to see a pretty high function deaf person before i would issue them a permit for CC. The Nebraska standard as spelled out in the statute is pretty clear. No physical infirmity that keeps them from safely using the gun. This guys handicap nearly got him shot tonight. I do not make the laws, only follow them.

 

[N R A]

And I don't see anything that would indicate why a blind person would lack such prudence. Blindness does not equal irresponsibility.

I have a Glock Professional class i need to take. Three days of pretty intense shooting that not every instructor passes. I hope to pass, but one test is an FBI Q target at 25 yards where i need to shoot the target as i walk, neal, crawl, 24 hits in 24 seconds. I am not 100% sure i will pass.

If i were blind, what chance would i have of passing? If i called Glock and told them i was too blind to drive or read a book, but i want to take this class, what do you think old man Glock would say?

 

[NavyLCDR]

This is what happened to a deaf person with a CC permit. Not my student.

I would need to see a pretty high function deaf person before i would issue them a permit for CC. The Nebraska standard as spelled out in the statute is pretty clear. No physical infirmity that keeps them from safely using the gun. This guys handicap nearly got him shot tonight. I do not make the laws, only follow them.

So, one incident defines how all deaf people should be regulated to you? Seems to me like the responsible way to handle it, if you have a deaf student, is to mention the incident to them and let them figure it out. I guess I am approaching this from a prejudice though. I can't imagine telling my now 18 year old daughter who lost a lower leg in fifth grade that she couldn't play volleyball, be a cheerleader, or the team captain of a hip hop competition dance team because only people with two legs do those things.

 

[K-Products.US]

My oh my..... I appreciate all the comments and some are truly somewhat heated but for me it is a moral issue as the laws are very clear on the matter. However, as an instructor I or we have a moral obligation not just legal.
I have known many a blind person and some see more being blind than with sight. I have also witnessed how some have panicked in a very stressful situation and others no problem.
There is no test for this - laws alone are not enough and truly I would want the person safe in all regards.
Are all of you as instructors confident that you possess the skills to adequately facilitate the learning of a handicapped individual to meet/exceed their needs?
As a retired teacher, I have realized in a classroom of different learning abilities a "Special Educational Teacher" has specific tools to assist the handicapped.

Yet, those tools are not included in the NRA teaching set and to compond the problem, I have not talked to any instructor that has taught a blind person.

Regardless of your legal feelings have you taught a person that was completely blind? If so what were your challenges and solutions for that person?