Cc-Oc accidental shirt lift
- Thread starter Jason1221
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ernstdesigns
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Check out http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_ccwfaq.asp at the bottom of the page. Brandishing is defined as showing in a threatening way, so long as it is in the holster, I would assume it is not brandishing, and you should be good.
GunClasses.Net
New member
But still...
I heard a story of a citizen freaking out in downtown twin ctiies... when a gust of wind blew open a jacket of a cc at a gas pump. She called it in to 911 and somehow it ended in a tense traffic stop where the poor guy was able to explain it to the officer. Nothing bad happened after that, but what a hassle. Try to not let it show; it spooks folks... not everyone shoots or owns guns - and in an urban setting like mine, showing (accidentally) a carried gun may not be perceived like it might be in a rural area.
I heard a story of a citizen freaking out in downtown twin ctiies... when a gust of wind blew open a jacket of a cc at a gas pump. She called it in to 911 and somehow it ended in a tense traffic stop where the poor guy was able to explain it to the officer. Nothing bad happened after that, but what a hassle. Try to not let it show; it spooks folks... not everyone shoots or owns guns - and in an urban setting like mine, showing (accidentally) a carried gun may not be perceived like it might be in a rural area.
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Bikenut
Guest
Everything below is specific to Michigan... AND I AM NOT A LAWYER so consider the following as general information... not legal advice or legal opinion!!!
STATE OF MICHIGAN
JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, ATTORNEY GENERAL
-snip-
Opinion No. 7101
February 6, 2002
-snip-
In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."
-snip-
(Bold added by me for emphasis)
Opinion #7101 can be read here:
Opinion #7101
Open carry means it is legal for a holstered pistol to be seen. It doesn't matter if you openly carried with the holstered pistol totally in plain sight or if your holstered CC'd pistol became accidentally exposed... the holstered gun being seen is still legal.
Now... if you were to raise your shirt with the intention of threatening with intimidating or frightening by showing someone you have a gun... then that IS "brandishing" because your purpose was to threaten.
However... if you do the above while a bad guy is threatening you then, even though it is still considered "brandishing" to threaten the bad guy it could be considered "force other than deadly force" and might be considered justifiable.
Totally fictitious examples that are specific to Michigan:
1. You are grocery shopping and you reach up to the top shelf for a box of Wheaties. Your shirt rides up and your CC'd gun becomes visible. Because open carry is legal and because you had no intent to threaten or to do anything besides buy a box of Wheaties there is no legal harm, no legal foul, and no act of "brandishing".
2. You are grocery shopping and some guy is pestering you calling your wife/girl friend suggestive and dirty names cussing and swearing too. He is annoying as can be but he has NOT threatened you in any way. You repeatedly try to get away from him but can't.. and finally lift your shirt to show him your gun as a threat for the purpose of scaring him away. That IS the crime of "brandishing" and because there is no real threat to you it would not be legally justified.
3. You are grocery shopping and some guy threatens you with a knife. You raise your shirt for the express purpose of scaring him away with the threat that you have a gun. That is still the crime of "brandishing" but could be legally justifiable under the "force other than deadly force" law.
SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 309 of 2006
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2.
-snip-
(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.
Actual and complete law can be seen here:
Michigan Legislature - Section 780.972
Note:
The way the law works is it specifies what is illegal.. in this case "brandishing" is illegal.. it is ALWAYS illegal... but then the law goes on to give examples where, although brandishing is illegal, it might be legally "justified" or "allowed".
But whether or not a specific case involving an actual act of "brandishing" meets the criteria for being "legally justified" could end up being decided by a judge or a jury!!!!
A very good source for info on Michigan's very convoluted and sometimes difficult to understand gun laws:
Link Removed
B
Bikenut
Guest
Now........this is not directed at you GunClasses.Net or anyone else either but it is a rant brought about by the idea that we should hide our guns in order to not upset anyone:
If someone gets their panties in a bunch because they see my legally carried gun I do NOT care! I am not responsible for the irrational fear of a gun, nor am I required to obey the opinions, of other people. If I allow myself to be afraid to exercise the right to bear arms because it might "offend" someone... then I don't have any right to bear arms... all I have is me running scared of people not liking me because I carry a gun. And that is how we all got into this situation where people aren't used to seeing guns... too many gun owners hid their guns in shame and the fear that other people would be "offended", or would "look down on them", or would "shun them", and the gun owners wouldn't "fit in".
Not to mention that contrary to what many CC folks in Michigan thought would happen... open carry, and the media attention to it over the past few years, has not resulted in more restrictive laws but the general public has become accustomed to seeing ordinary people wearing guns in public and instead of people running away screaming.. or folks calling the police... what has actually happened is the police depts. all over the entire State have been notified of.. and/or retrained in.. the legality of open carry and the media coverage has educated the general public that open carry is legal.
And now seeing a gun in public has become more common and rarely causes any commotion. And it became that way because some folks decided to actually stand up and unashamedly exercise their legal right to bear arms in plain sight and not be afraid of "offending" other people.
A personal experience shortened to just the important part:
I was OC'ing in a local park eating ice cream when a woman asked me to put my gun away because she didn't like it. When I refused the police were called. The police officer who responded did NOT disarm me but stood at my side and explained to the woman (and several other folks hanging around to watch the show) that my open carry was not only legal and my right but that she did NOT have the right to expect me to put my gun away just because she didn't like it.
Now.. that incident educated the woman and the spectators who were eagerly expecting to see the gun totin open carrier get arrested but instead discovered that it is legal for ordinary folks just like themselves to carry guns in plain sight in public. And they were told so by a police officer to boot. However.. if I were to have allowed the fear of "offending" someone... or the fear of having to talk with the police about doing something perfectly legal... then that "teachable moment" for all those folks in the park would never have happened.
Some might say... "Well... those folks are now gonna get mad and get more restrictive laws passed and we will lose our concealed permits too!" but since open carry became more common Michigan has seen many illegal anti gun local ordinances repealed (because open carriers attended council meetings... open carrying of course) and new legislation under consideration in the State legislature... as an example.. Michigan SB 59 that benefits CC by allowing a special exemption for CC in PFZs introduced to the legislature by Michigan Open Carry.. an open carry organization. Yeah.. imagine that... an open carry organization fighting to further concealed carry.. now how many concealed carry organizations can say the same about open carry? If there are any I'd love to hear about it.
One other thing.... keeping open carry legal should be a priority for concealed carriers simply because it protects CC'ers from legal problems if their CC'd gun prints or become accidentally exposed.
End of rant.
Treo
Bullet Proof
Off topic but don't bet on it. There was a case in Colorado in which a man was arrested and charged w/ felony menacing for patting his jacket over where his gun was the person who reported it never even saw the gun.
As I said though the above doesn't apply to the OP's question.
As for the OP's question I'd just about bet no one would even notice.
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B
Bikenut
Guest
You are very welcome Jason. Please allow me to ask if you are absolutely sure you understand all the laws that govern open carry. My concern is only so you don't get jammed up due to a misunderstanding.
I'm pretty sure. Can't say for positive though I'm not a lawyer but I'm confident about what I do know. Is there any twisted up laws I should be concerned with? Pretty cut and dry no Carry zones keep holstered don't brandish only use force when absolutely positively necessary. Anything I've missed. And thanks for the concern that's what makes this country great is ppl like you guys helping us out in ways we could get jammed up. Appreciate it everyone
GunClasses.Net
New member
And, this point you raise is a great example for why I don't think instructors should ever give general legal statements as if they apply to all situations. Thanks for bringing this up...
An assault only needs for the victim to be in reasonable fear of a credible threat. That concealed pistol seems to have been patted through the jacket, as if to say "I can and will hurt you". Bam - assault charge.
You have the right to OC and do a lot of things. Whatever we do, we're responsible for our actions. We are talking about OC, not yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre. Go ahead; OC... Just understand that what's an irrational fear to one person is a rational fear to someone else, and I cannot tell another human being that 'you shouldn't feel' a certain way or that your opinions are invalid. I think people's fears of OC pistols are perfectly rational, though they are not my fears, because unless there's a mental illness at work, our minds are like computers; it just depends what the input is! Their fears are not my fears, but their input is not the same as mine. Maybe I grew up shooting guns at targets and they lost a classmate in elementary school to a gang-bangin' driveby. Maybe I grew up listening to my stepfather telling me about guns in responsible ways; and they grew up with the input of society's mythological sensationalism around guns being used irresponsibly... Maybe I spend an hour a day on internet gun forums talking about all the things we do to prepare ourselves, and they have absolutely no idea what kind of training, if any, I've had for that 19+1 9mm on my hip and the two extra magazines that ride next to it. I do know this; we'll never understand each other until we try to understand each other, and one of us has to make the leap first...
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Bikenut
Guest
When I open carry I am exercising the right to bear arms in a legal manner. Anyone who doesn't like to see it has the right to look elsewhere so they don't see it. I am not responsible to appease everyone by making sure no one sees something they don't like. Anyone who is scared by it has the right to go somewhere else so they won't be scared. I am not responsible to appease everyone and leave just so they won't be scared.
GunClasses.Net
New member
I'm guessing you're yelling in bold because I've angered you, and if I did I apologize.
B
Bikenut
Guest
No need to apologize since I am not angry nor have you done anything wrong.
Nope... not yelling... I put those parts in bold only for emphasis because I believe so strongly in them.
I used to think that the best thing to do was to walk softly and try not to offend. Then I realized that those who don't like guns weren't walking softly around me... they were walking over me ... and they were walking all over the right to bear arms while wearing muddy boots! Not only that but the only reason they were able to walk all over the right to bear arms is because instead of gun owners standing up and blocking the way...everyone was laying down in fear of "offending" someone. And the anti gun agenda just kept marching on... muddy boots and all.
So I have stopped being concerned about other people's "feelings" when it comes to rights. I now understand that the anti gun folks rely on using peer pressure to make gun owners feel ashamed and afraid to actually dare to exercise the right to bear arms.
So once again I will say...
If someone gets their panties in a bunch because they see my legally carried gun I do not care! I am NOT responsible for the condition of other people's panties!
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