45acp vs. body armor

[gwtx]

Since we are starting to see/hear of more "perps" wearing armor, just curious what the effect would be when a 45 acp self defense round strikes dead center of the perps chest. I realize there are different levels of armor, and that a self defense round likely will NOT penetrate the armor, but it seems to me that at a range of 50ft or less, it would deliver enough energy to disable the person, if not kill them from the "blunt trama" effect directly over the heart. With all the talk about 9mm vs. 45, vs. 40cal, I'm thinking the larger round (45cal) would have a greater effect. I carry a 9mm for edc, but am seriously considering a 45acp. I'm also leaning towards a "da/sa" to be able to be more accurate with the first round.
Whadda ya think? Gary

 

[WmGardner]

Since we are starting to see/hear of more "perps" wearing armor, just curious what the effect would be when a 45 acp self defense round strikes dead center of the perps chest. I realize there are different levels of armor, and that a self defense round likely will NOT penetrate the armor, but it seems to me that at a range of 50ft or less, it would deliver enough energy to disable the person, if not kill them from the "blunt trama" effect directly over the heart. With all the talk about 9mm vs. 45, vs. 40cal, I'm thinking the larger round (45cal) would have a greater effect. I carry a 9mm for edc, but am seriously considering a 45acp. I'm also leaning towards a "da/sa" to be able to be more accurate with the first round.
Whadda ya think? Gary

Would a .45 hurt more? Yeah, probably. More internal damage? Most likely. Enough to stop an active shooter in his tracks long enough to make a penetrating shot? Probably depends a lot on the perp (mass, adrenaline, determination, narcotic levels) and the armor.

I have started carrying Underwood Ultimate Defender +P+ loads in my HK. They produced consistent penetration on lvl 2 armor for Tim at Military Arms Channel. The speed they are traveling, I would have to think they pack a pretty good wallop, if they don’t penetrate.


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[Eidolon]

If you want to be more accurate with the first round you need to practice.

There are multiple factors that come into play with body armor. What level is it? Is it properly fitted and properly worn? Is there a trauma plate? Does God like you?

If all the stars and planets align and today is you lucky day, yes that could happen but I wouldn't count on it

 

[niceshootintex]

Since we are starting to see/hear of more "perps" wearing armor, just curious what the effect would be when a 45 acp self defense round strikes dead center of the perps chest. I realize there are different levels of armor, and that a self defense round likely will NOT penetrate the armor, but it seems to me that at a range of 50ft or less, it would deliver enough energy to disable the person, if not kill them from the "blunt trama" effect directly over the heart. With all the talk about 9mm vs. 45, vs. 40cal, I'm thinking the larger round (45cal) would have a greater effect. I carry a 9mm for edc, but am seriously considering a 45acp. I'm also leaning towards a "da/sa" to be able to be more accurate with the first round.
Whadda ya think? Gary

Incorporate leg shots into training. I do it rarely tbh. I sometimes train on head shots and body mass always but head shots are obviously dicey in a real SD situation. Some military and LEO units train for arm and hand shots. I doubt I could make that shot at 25 yards if lead was already flying.

If the attacker has armour on over clothes then you at least have an understanding of the limits your gun will have and alternative strategies are in play including running if the situation allows for it. If an attacker has armour on and a long rifle it's game over light or the last great act of defiance I suspect. It doesn't mean you should empty your gun and it doesn't mean you shouldn't. Situational.

I have seen a multitude of articles on caliber variant effects with no armour worn and a few with effects based on initial product testing at varying ranges and calibers. Our EDC's in most cases will have, regardless of caliber, no great effect on good armour. I don't know how that changes with a magnum load at .357 or .44 and how many actually carry that heavy anyway? If they can stop a bear they will impact a human with a vest. I have a .357 retreat gun in my vehicle but whether I'd get to it or not is completely random based on situation.

One of those situations where almost no amount of preparation can prepare you for it. If they have their back turned from you or if they're facing you will probably decide how much you can help yourself or others. Don't start the shoot to wound by shooting at their legs debate folks. We're talking the great minority of cases where a leg shot works (from under a car etc...). Or a person with upper torso armour

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[driz]

I wouldn’t get too excited about that possibility. So in the event of it occurring just do what we always practiced 2 to the chest one to the head. I must’ve drilled on it for almost 30 years.

With your 45 One thing I can say about it is that when I was in the army we shot an old flack vest vintage Vietnam era. The round got stopped by it while a 38 special sailed right through it. An MP cranked one through his holster and down the side of this boot sole through the leather and it stuck in the floor of the army transport bus ,essentially a school bus with a hardwood floor. He hopped up and down for a few minutes complaining and then somebody reached down and basically just pull the bullet off the floor which left a little dent. It was all I needed to see about the fabled 45.
Go with what your best with and remember to slow down for that third shot for the third shot because it’s a pretty small target no matter how you cut it. I guess you can assume at least one of those first two is going to hit whoever in that chest in it going to have some sort of a effect giving you more time to aim hopefully.




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[snowman45]

Shots to the hip girdle are something we trained for situations where body armor is being used by the suspects. It is a relatively large target and will take the suspects' mobility from them. It's a tad easier to hit than the head, in most cases.

 

[gvaldeg1]

Since we are starting to see/hear of more "perps" wearing armor, just curious what the effect would be when a 45 acp self defense round strikes dead center of the perps chest. I realize there are different levels of armor, and that a self defense round likely will NOT penetrate the armor, but it seems to me that at a range of 50ft or less, it would deliver enough energy to disable the person, if not kill them from the "blunt trama" effect directly over the heart. With all the talk about 9mm vs. 45, vs. 40cal, I'm thinking the larger round (45cal) would have a greater effect. I carry a 9mm for edc, but am seriously considering a 45acp. I'm also leaning towards a "da/sa" to be able to be more accurate with the first round.
Whadda ya think? Gary

Actually, it would be the momentum (mass times velocity) rather than the energy that would be disabling. A baseball weighs about 10 times the weight of a 230 grain 45 round and can be pitched at 100 miles per hour (150 feet per second) which is one sixth (1/6) the velocity of a 230 grain 45 round (900 fps). This means the momentum of a pitched baseball is 10/6 (1.67) the momentum of a 230 grain 45 bullet. So, a fast pitched baseball has more momentum than a 45 bullet. I don't think that this will either be disabling or even knock him back much. Don't let what you see in the movies influence you. What you feel in the recoil of the gun is the total momentum of the bullet and the gasses. In the movies you see people knocked through doors, windows, or even walls. This is total hogwash. Any decent engineer or physicist knows that.

 

[Ringo]

Because head shots are the #1 stopper, I've always practiced shooting small/medium tin cans from 30 feet. All practice is draw and shoot for speed and accuracy. I agree however, with one or two to the chest to slow them down or leg shots to get them down to make the head shot simple.