Illinois State Police About to Make Concealed Carry more Costly

[AlphaKoncepts]

Illinois State Police About to Make Concealed Carry more Costly

According to the Firearm Concealed Carry Licensing Act (FCCL), the Illinois State Police (ISP) are responsible for licensing and administration of the Act. As such the ISP have the right o set administrative rules governing instructor and licensee activities.

The ISP recently released a set of proposed administrative rules. Those rules may be found here: Link Removed (Start on page 56). If you are considering obtaining an Illinois Concealed Carry license, or if you have one already it would be in your best interest to read these rules. Some of the changes are going to make training (and retraining) more cost prohibitive because of redundant responsibilities added to instructors.

Read more here:
Link Removed

 

[DavidWhite]

Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105

No state shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and attach a fee to it.
A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted (Affirmed) by the Federal constitution. at 113, (1943).

 

[Quiet Observer]

Chicago,

What is the specific training and costs to which you are referring? Neither you or Gun Rights 4 Illinois list them or compare them to the present regulations.

 

[kwc]

The proposed rules cost more of an instructor's time by imposing more burdensome administrative requirements upon the instructor.

I believe the thought here is that instructors may in turn charge their students more as a result since time = money.

The administrative code changes do not add any fees or other direct costs for applicants. That would require revision of the statute.

 

[AlphaKoncepts]

Sure the specific training fees are listed in the original article. As the state adds on burdens to instructors, and then doubles those burdens with redundant burdens, the training fees will inevitably go up. Time is money. The article does not say the state is tying to charge more. The article states the state is goign to make it more costly. The ridiculous actions of the Illinois State Police will result is higher student training fees, thus making the license more costly.

 

[Quiet Observer]

Sure the specific training fees are listed in the original article.

Sorry, I could not find any such fees on the pages from your links. Please copy and paste.

The proposed regulations do not increase the number of hours of training needed. They now designate the minimum time to be spent on topics.

1) The 12 or 16 hour standardized training curriculum shall, at a minimum, cover the following topics:
A) Firearms Safety − a minimum of 1 hour;
B) Basic Principles of Marksmanship − a minimum of 1 hour;
C) Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm − a minimum of 1 hour;
D) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm and appropriate and lawful interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a concealed firearm − a minimum of 2 hours; and
E) Weapons Handling − a minimum of 1 hour.
2) The 8 hour standardized training curriculum shall, at a minimum, cover the following topics:
A) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm and appropriate and lawful interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a concealed firearm − a minimum of 2 hours; and
B) Weapons Handling − a minimum of 1 hour.

Like now, the instructors will be required to maintain records for 5 years. They will also be required to use the designated database.

Effective March 1, 2016, the Instructor shall begin using the electronic computer database established by the Department. After March 1, 2016, approved Instructors shall, at least 72 hours prior to conducting a Department approved standardized training course for purposes of issuing a Concealed Carry Firearms Training Certification, submit to the Department the dates, times and locations of the training sessions.

People without computers are a rarity. I doubt if many instructors are going to need to go out and buy new computers to meet this requirement.

 

[kwc]

IMHO, the most time-consuming proposed change is the requirement for instructors to scan and upload to the ISP database, for each student, all training certificates and proof of training for credit that is statutorily granted.

This needs to be accomplished within 72 hours of course completion, and is redundant since the students will need to upload their certificates as well during the application process anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if the instructor would need to enter specific identifying information on each student as well into the database. Scanning, data entry, and uploading may take 10-15 minutes per student... so a class of 10 students would require about 2 hours of additional administrative work.

And as stated, time is money. Some instructors may end up charging their students more as a result; others (who teach for the love of it, as a hobby, or simply as a part-time source of fun money) will simply "eat" the time as a cost of doing business.

Regardless, placing additional unnecessary burdens upon instructors isn't helpful and only serves at best to annoy, and at worst to drive down the number of licensees via economic disincentives.

 

[AlphaKoncepts]

Requiring instructors to register classes 72 hours before hand, un-necessary - added labor = added costs.

Requiring instructyors to register AGAIN 72 hours after, un-necessary - more added labor = more added costs.

Making the training requirement more restrictive in regards to scoring, un-necessary - possibly more ammunition and instructor time = more added costs.

Making the training valid for only 1 year, un-necessary - potentially causing redundant training = more costs.

Shall I continue with the added costs proposed by the Illinois State police?


Quiet Observer, I don't get why you are advocating FOR the ISP instead of against the ISP?!

We are focused on 2 or 3 proposed restrictions. There are many. Cost is not the only factor. The ISP is trying to backwards legislate making an already very very restrictive law even more restrictive. Illinois really wants poor people defenseless. I think it's time to bring back my no interest financing concealed carry classes if this keeps up.

 

[Quiet Observer]

Kwc,

Thanks for the information. I can see you point that there is a potential for some instructors to increase their charges; as opposed to the title of this thread that says it is an absolute. I do not know the time instructors now take to report class results, so cannot make a judgement on how much more time they will use for administrative functions. I do not know how submitting to the database will work out. Whether the names and information on students will have to be typed in again, or if the instructor can access that information from the pre-registration data, and just verify it to enter it into the post-class report. If the instructor can enter all the certificates and supporting for the class in a batch, rather typing information on a single student, scanning documents for that student, and then repeating for each student, it would be more efficient. I am not making any prediction on how efficient or reliable the ISP database will be.

I see the 72 hour post class requirement as being beneficial to the students. There is less delay then waiting for an “I’ll get to it next week” instructor. The redundancy of instructor and students submitting information may be intended to limit fraud. It would be nice for the ISP to explain their reasoning in making the changes. I am not making a blanket endorsement of all the proposed changes.

BTW: I usually read your posts on the other sight. Like here, you present your case with logic and supportive information, not a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[kwc]

Quiet Observer,

Right now there is no requirement for an instructor to provide anything back to the ISP on any student, either before or after the class.

Instructors maintain an internal class roster (for their own records) and other internal documentation, either on paper or in a digital form that matches their preferred workflow, and they issue certificates directly to the students. It is purely up to the students to submit all required documents to the ISP CCL application web site when applying. The attendance roster and other records are not provided to the ISP unless the ISP specifically asks to see it as part of an inspection or investigation.

The proposed admin changes introduce a new process, presumably designed to protect against fraud. I haven't heard of anyone having a license revoked for applicant fraud (acting alone)--and if I'm interpreting the data correctly, my FOIA data on license revocations supports that conclusion. In fact, any fraudulent activity to date that has led to a revoked license was linked to or enabled by instructor misdeeds.

You will always have "cheaters," but in this case that seems to be extremely rare. IMHO, adding more administrivia won't fix this. Instructors that cheat by cutting classes short, signing certificates illegally, etc. will continue to do just that.

 

[DavidWhite]

Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105

No state shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and attach a fee to it.
A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted (Affirmed) by the Federal constitution. at 113, (1943).

Link Removed

Link Removed

 

[AlphaKoncepts]

If ANYONE known about revocations it is KWC, he records and reports the numbers monthly.

 

[kwc]

If ANYONE known about revocations it is KWC, he records and reports the numbers monthly.

Yeah, it's a bad habit of mine.