The gun owner here wasn't able to stop the BGs. They shot it out with him and got away. I suppose you're a better shot though- right? But of course you are. BTW: why are you asking me how it would work out if I told the bad guy robbery was illegal or handed him my weapon? Where did I suggest that would be a good idea? Please quote that post.
The goal is to stop the criminal act. That can occur in two ways: physically incapacitating the criminal beyond the capability to continue the criminal act, or taking action to cause the criminal to flee. If during the attempt to incapicitate the criminal, the criminal flees because of your attempts, you have accomplished your goal.
To wait and see how things turn out is not defending yourself. It is trusting in fate to smile down upon you and allow you to escape unharmed. I don't carry a gun because I trust fate, I carry a gun to defend myself. If I was going to trust in fate, I would simply carry $400 in my pocket to give to a criminal to get him to leave, rather than carry a $400 gun and ammo.
In the situation at Denny's, I and my family would be under attack the minute the criminals walked through the door with masks on their heads and guns in their hands. They clearly were not there to order a stack of pancakes to go.
And here's another interesting statistic: you have a better chance of surviving a shootout between criminals and citizens then you do surviving a shootout between criminals and the police:
Fact: 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens
kill an innocent person.
Fact: "In actual shootings, citizens do far better than law enforcement on hit potential.
They hit their targets and they don't hit other people. I wish I could say the same for cops.
We train more, they do better." - Sheriff Greg White, Cole County, Missouri, Guns to be allowed on campus?, KRCG News, July 31, 2009
You are so off base here I really can't believe it. The goal of a private citizen carrying a firearm is to defend themselves- not to go around stopping criminals and criminal acts.
It all depends largely upon state law. Read Washington's law again, buddy...I'll highlight some words for you:
"RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished;"
I carry a gun to protect myself and my family from violent, criminal acts. And, more than likely, I will aid in the protection of other human beings, because that is part of my moral beliefs. I'm not a cop. I'm not going to pull my gun and stop a shoplifter I see putting a candy bar in their pocket. I'm not going to run my car around a person I see who might be driving drunk and force them to stop and apprehend them. I'm not going to hold the next door neighbor at gunpoint for the cops to arrive because they are illegally burning trash in a barrel. I am not going to sit in my car and listen to a police scanner and rush to scenes of crimes. I am not going to look for flashing lights to intervene in situations where the police are.
What I am going to do is take action when criminals put themselves in my presence with the means readily available to commit a violent felony and a clear design to commit a violent felony, depending on the totality of the circumstances, the biggest factor of which is the possibility of injuring innocent bystanders.
If I shoot at an armed robber, and the robber shoots the clerk/waitress - don't put the blame on me for that one, pal. It wasn't I who came into the restaurant with a mask and brandishing a gun. It wasn't I who chose to shoot and kill the waitress. That's 100% on the criminal. You say if the criminal gets what they want, then they most likely will leave without hurting anyone. I say if the criminal faces consequences that far outweigh potential benefit from the crime, they will most likely flee.
Earlier the goal was to stop a criminal act. Now it's to defend yourself and your family. You're like a fish on a boat.....
Good grief. There aren't enough facepalms to even begin to cover much of what's been written in this thread.
Stopping the criminal is protecting myself and my family.
Hey....whatever you say. I know it's imortant for you to get the last word in so please feel free.
If I didn't think I'd be better off defending myself, why would I even bother to carry a gun? If you don't believe society is better off with armed, law abiding citizens, what are you an instructor of?So it's a MUCH better idea to open fire in a Denny's then? You miss or only wound him. BG opens fire and kills several innocent people. How would that end for you? Also, please quote where I suggest to get on your knees and beg. Of course there's a way to shoot both BG's. You have to be paying attention and be able to hit him with a head shot because he's behind the cover of a desk. Most people think it's over once they kill the guy at the teller window. Some get a shot off but can't hit him from behind cover. Some do hit him but it's rare. For every robbery you can show me where a BG went in shooting and an armed civilian saved the day I can show you thousands where they came in brandishing a gun and ran after they got the money- which is all they wanted in the first place. Also please post links to the training that instructs people to open fire on the BG in a scenarion like the Denny's robbery. Thanks
If I didn't think I'd be better off defending myself, why would I even bother to carry a gun? If you don't believe society is better off with armed, law abiding citizens, what are you an instructor of?
I have no wish to shoot anyone, especially an innocent bystander, and there are scenarios where I would hold fire, even at my own personal risk. I have long voiced my concern over an untrained moron with a gun deciding it's a good idea to run into a 7/11 to stop a robbery in progress, so I think we're basically on the same page. But in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather have my gun and not need it, than need it and not have it.
Here's an interesting coincidence, yesterday the wife and I decided to meet in town for lunch. Where did she suggest we go to eat? Denny's. I told her that I won't eat there because of their policy of not allowing law abiding customers to carry inside their restaurant.
Link Removed
Watch out Rich, I got flamed for calling some gun owners Rambo. I was told I should act without insult and be held to a higher standard. I said bull-a-crap. You're an instructor and so am I. We see Rambo on a regular basis. Plenty of people out there itching for a confrontation. What most don't understand that if they should injure or kill someone, God forbide an innocent patron, it will absolutely ruin their life. Most clerks are instructed to give up the $$. Some posters want to nail us down to exactly what we would do and when. That shows lack of experience.There's common sense and there's fear. Rambo wannabes who think they are going to save the day should think twice.
Watch out Rich, I got flamed for calling some gun owners Rambo. I was told I should act without insult and be held to a higher standard. I said bull-a-crap. You're an instructor and so am I. We see Rambo on a regular basis. Plenty of people out there itching for a confrontation. What most don't understand that if they should injure or kill someone, God forbide an innocent patron, it will absolutely ruin their life. Most clerks are instructed to give up the $$. Some posters want to nail us down to exactly what we would do and when. That shows lack of experience.
Ok. Hold on a second, let me get this straight... Denny's says 'no guns'! That means the BG's are going to read the sign and say "OH NO! I can't go in there and create mayhem because they say 'no guns!'? I better go to IHOP and do my evil there!"?
Is Denny's really that stupid???
WHAT IDIOTS!!!!!
Liklihood of me getting jammed up hard criminally and civilly if I shoot someone coming to the aid of a stranger in Massachusetts: 100%
Liklihood of a stranger intervening to help a family member of mine: .000000000001%
Karma has 0 bearing here and I'll play the percentages all day long.
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