Denny's "no guns allowed" signs seem to be working.


The gun owner here wasn't able to stop the BGs. They shot it out with him and got away. I suppose you're a better shot though- right? But of course you are. BTW: why are you asking me how it would work out if I told the bad guy robbery was illegal or handed him my weapon? Where did I suggest that would be a good idea? Please quote that post.

The goal is to stop the criminal act. That can occur in two ways: physically incapacitating the criminal beyond the capability to continue the criminal act, or taking action to cause the criminal to flee. If during the attempt to incapicitate the criminal, the criminal flees because of your attempts, you have accomplished your goal.

To wait and see how things turn out is not defending yourself. It is trusting in fate to smile down upon you and allow you to escape unharmed. I don't carry a gun because I trust fate, I carry a gun to defend myself. If I was going to trust in fate, I would simply carry $400 in my pocket to give to a criminal to get him to leave, rather than carry a $400 gun and ammo.

In the situation at Denny's, I and my family would be under attack the minute the criminals walked through the door with masks on their heads and guns in their hands. They clearly were not there to order a stack of pancakes to go.

And here's another interesting statistic: you have a better chance of surviving a shootout between criminals and citizens then you do surviving a shootout between criminals and the police:

Fact: 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens
kill an innocent person.

Fact: "In actual shootings, citizens do far better than law enforcement on hit potential.
They hit their targets and they don't hit other people. I wish I could say the same for cops.
We train more, they do better." - Sheriff Greg White, Cole County, Missouri, Guns to be allowed on campus?, KRCG News, July 31, 2009
 

The goal is to stop the criminal act. That can occur in two ways: physically incapacitating the criminal beyond the capability to continue the criminal act, or taking action to cause the criminal to flee. If during the attempt to incapicitate the criminal, the criminal flees because of your attempts, you have accomplished your goal.

To wait and see how things turn out is not defending yourself. It is trusting in fate to smile down upon you and allow you to escape unharmed. I don't carry a gun because I trust fate, I carry a gun to defend myself. If I was going to trust in fate, I would simply carry $400 in my pocket to give to a criminal to get him to leave, rather than carry a $400 gun and ammo.

In the situation at Denny's, I and my family would be under attack the minute the criminals walked through the door with masks on their heads and guns in their hands. They clearly were not there to order a stack of pancakes to go.

And here's another interesting statistic: you have a better chance of surviving a shootout between criminals and citizens then you do surviving a shootout between criminals and the police:

Fact: 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens
kill an innocent person.

Fact: "In actual shootings, citizens do far better than law enforcement on hit potential.
They hit their targets and they don't hit other people. I wish I could say the same for cops.
We train more, they do better." - Sheriff Greg White, Cole County, Missouri, Guns to be allowed on campus?, KRCG News, July 31, 2009

You are so off base here I really can't believe it. The goal of a private citizen carrying a firearm is to defend themselves- not to go around stopping criminals and criminal acts. If you can find one other person in this country that says a citizen should carry with a goal in mind of stopping criminal acts that would make two of you. They have a term for that. It's called vigilantism and it's illegal. It's not my money in the cash register at Denny's. It's not my job to stop a robbery. To open fire on a criminal robbing Denny's is not defending yourself. Read the article in the OP again. The shooting started after the gun owner pulled his gun. As I said before you really do need some training. The military does absolutely nothing to prepare you for carrying as a citizen. Your posts in this thread are a perfect example of that. I just had a Marine in class recently. I ran him through the previously mentioned bank robbery scenario. He shot the robber at the teller window and got killed by the accomplice. In trying to hide his embarrassment he said “well, it didn't go down like that in Afghanistan.” Guess what: you're not in Afghanistan anymore. Good luck to you employing your philosophy of carrying in public.
 
You are so off base here I really can't believe it. The goal of a private citizen carrying a firearm is to defend themselves- not to go around stopping criminals and criminal acts.

It all depends largely upon state law. Read Washington's law again, buddy...I'll highlight some words for you:

"RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished;"

I carry a gun to protect myself and my family from violent, criminal acts. And, more than likely, I will aid in the protection of other human beings, because that is part of my moral beliefs. I'm not a cop. I'm not going to pull my gun and stop a shoplifter I see putting a candy bar in their pocket. I'm not going to run my car around a person I see who might be driving drunk and force them to stop and apprehend them. I'm not going to hold the next door neighbor at gunpoint for the cops to arrive because they are illegally burning trash in a barrel. I am not going to sit in my car and listen to a police scanner and rush to scenes of crimes. I am not going to look for flashing lights to intervene in situations where the police are.

What I am going to do is take action when criminals put themselves in my presence with the means readily available to commit a violent felony and a clear design to commit a violent felony, depending on the totality of the circumstances, the biggest factor of which is the possibility of injuring innocent bystanders.

If I shoot at an armed robber, and the robber shoots the clerk/waitress - don't put the blame on me for that one, pal. It wasn't I who came into the restaurant with a mask and brandishing a gun. It wasn't I who chose to shoot and kill the waitress. That's 100% on the criminal. You say if the criminal gets what they want, then they most likely will leave without hurting anyone. I say if the criminal faces consequences that far outweigh potential benefit from the crime, they will most likely flee.
 
It all depends largely upon state law. Read Washington's law again, buddy...I'll highlight some words for you:

"RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished;"

I carry a gun to protect myself and my family from violent, criminal acts. And, more than likely, I will aid in the protection of other human beings, because that is part of my moral beliefs. I'm not a cop. I'm not going to pull my gun and stop a shoplifter I see putting a candy bar in their pocket. I'm not going to run my car around a person I see who might be driving drunk and force them to stop and apprehend them. I'm not going to hold the next door neighbor at gunpoint for the cops to arrive because they are illegally burning trash in a barrel. I am not going to sit in my car and listen to a police scanner and rush to scenes of crimes. I am not going to look for flashing lights to intervene in situations where the police are.

What I am going to do is take action when criminals put themselves in my presence with the means readily available to commit a violent felony and a clear design to commit a violent felony, depending on the totality of the circumstances, the biggest factor of which is the possibility of injuring innocent bystanders.

If I shoot at an armed robber, and the robber shoots the clerk/waitress - don't put the blame on me for that one, pal. It wasn't I who came into the restaurant with a mask and brandishing a gun. It wasn't I who chose to shoot and kill the waitress. That's 100% on the criminal. You say if the criminal gets what they want, then they most likely will leave without hurting anyone. I say if the criminal faces consequences that far outweigh potential benefit from the crime, they will most likely flee.


Earlier the goal was to stop a criminal act. Now it's to defend yourself and your family. You're like a fish on a boat.....
 
No Guns Allowed at Denny's, guess thats where the LEO's will be able to locate all the BG's eating breakfast. BG's don't care about a sign. I don't eat there because of the food and most of them are dirty.
 
Hey....whatever you say. I know it's imortant for you to get the last word in so please feel free.

Thank you. Here's the difference between you and me, apparently. You're sitting in Denny's sipping coffee and reading your newspaper when one or more criminals with masks on their heads and brandishing guns comes in. You simply don't view them as a deadly threat to you or your family until they actually start shooting in your direction.

I view them as a deadly threat to me and my family the second they step through the door with masks on their heads and brandishing guns. I am not a mind reader nor a clairvoyant. I don't know what their intentions are. It might be an armed robbery, it might be an IHOP or Luby's Cafeteria shooting. I can't predict if or when they will start shooting. It might be when they hear sirens in the distance. The situation could change at any moment.

The problem is, if I choose to wait to defend myself and my family until the criminals do start shooting, it is likely to be too late at that point. What if the first bullet out of their gun hits its mark?

By coming through the door with masks on their heads and brandishing firearms, they have already satisfied all the requirements in my state's laws for deadly force to be legally used against them. Other states may differ, but that's the way it is in my state. I feel the legislature was very smart in writing the law that way and I will not hesitate to evaluate a situation and take the action necessary to stop a deadly threat, hopefully before the deadly threat turns into a direct attack. And, in most cases, it isn't going to matter if that deadly threat is against me, my wife, my daughter or a complete stranger. I just don't have it in me to stand by and be the best witness I can when someone else's life is in danger and to possibly watch a violent felony be committed against them or murdered.
 
So it's a MUCH better idea to open fire in a Denny's then? You miss or only wound him. BG opens fire and kills several innocent people. How would that end for you? Also, please quote where I suggest to get on your knees and beg. Of course there's a way to shoot both BG's. You have to be paying attention and be able to hit him with a head shot because he's behind the cover of a desk. Most people think it's over once they kill the guy at the teller window. Some get a shot off but can't hit him from behind cover. Some do hit him but it's rare. For every robbery you can show me where a BG went in shooting and an armed civilian saved the day I can show you thousands where they came in brandishing a gun and ran after they got the money- which is all they wanted in the first place. Also please post links to the training that instructs people to open fire on the BG in a scenarion like the Denny's robbery. Thanks
If I didn't think I'd be better off defending myself, why would I even bother to carry a gun? If you don't believe society is better off with armed, law abiding citizens, what are you an instructor of?

I have no wish to shoot anyone, especially an innocent bystander, and there are scenarios where I would hold fire, even at my own personal risk. I have long voiced my concern over an untrained moron with a gun deciding it's a good idea to run into a 7/11 to stop a robbery in progress, so I think we're basically on the same page. But in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather have my gun and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Here's an interesting coincidence, yesterday the wife and I decided to meet in town for lunch. Where did she suggest we go to eat? Denny's. I told her that I won't eat there because of their policy of not allowing law abiding customers to carry inside their restaurant.
 
If I didn't think I'd be better off defending myself, why would I even bother to carry a gun? If you don't believe society is better off with armed, law abiding citizens, what are you an instructor of?

I have no wish to shoot anyone, especially an innocent bystander, and there are scenarios where I would hold fire, even at my own personal risk. I have long voiced my concern over an untrained moron with a gun deciding it's a good idea to run into a 7/11 to stop a robbery in progress, so I think we're basically on the same page. But in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather have my gun and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Here's an interesting coincidence, yesterday the wife and I decided to meet in town for lunch. Where did she suggest we go to eat? Denny's. I told her that I won't eat there because of their policy of not allowing law abiding customers to carry inside their restaurant.

We are on the same page if you think that this Denny's incident is a no shoot scenario. If you read the article in the OP it says the BGs started shooting after the gun owner shot at them. If he didn't pull his gun they more than likely would have taken the money and run. By shooting at them he caused them to shoot back and that created risks to himself and bystanders that should have been avoided IMO. I don't see the gun owner being the target of an attack in this scenario. He's very lucky that his actions didn't get someone killed. I totally support 2A, self defense, and armed citizens. I support the NRA as well as some local pro 2A nonprofits. I advocate for gun ownership in my community by promoting my club and bringing in new people to our range. I also happen to think that there's a time and a place to act and there's a time and a place to hold fire. In this scenario I would have been prepared to fire if things escalated but I would have held off. Several people in this thread think I would be at risk for doing so. Look at the risk the gun owner took and the peril he put himself in. Look at the risk he created for innocent third parties. This type of thing gives the antis ammunition to use against us by shouting about how some “nut case” opened fire in Denny's and needlessly put people at risk. If he held off he probably wouldn't have been shot at. He may have been at risk for holding off but he was absolutely 100% at risk by acting. This is the mindset I teach. You have a definite risk by acting in this situation. You have a possible risk by holding off. I like to odds of possible risk over definite myself. YMMV.
 
Ok. Hold on a second, let me get this straight... Denny's says 'no guns'! That means the BG's are going to read the sign and say "OH NO! I can't go in there and create mayhem because they say 'no guns!'? I better go to IHOP and do my evil there!"?
Is Denny's really that stupid???

WHAT IDIOTS!!!!!
 
Link Removed

If the man at the register had been CC'ing, as soon as he saw the BG's entering with guns drawn. He (I) would have unloaded my 1911. Per the VID, no one was behind them upon entering. CLEAR field of fire possibly. Really can't tell from the VID whats behind the BG's though.

As for Denny's, sounds like a GRAND SLAM is the only thing you can do there physically. (BUTT-CC is CC)JUS Saying
 
There's common sense and there's fear. Rambo wannabes who think they are going to save the day should think twice.
Watch out Rich, I got flamed for calling some gun owners Rambo. I was told I should act without insult and be held to a higher standard. I said bull-a-crap. You're an instructor and so am I. We see Rambo on a regular basis. Plenty of people out there itching for a confrontation. What most don't understand that if they should injure or kill someone, God forbide an innocent patron, it will absolutely ruin their life. Most clerks are instructed to give up the $$. Some posters want to nail us down to exactly what we would do and when. That shows lack of experience.
 
Watch out Rich, I got flamed for calling some gun owners Rambo. I was told I should act without insult and be held to a higher standard. I said bull-a-crap. You're an instructor and so am I. We see Rambo on a regular basis. Plenty of people out there itching for a confrontation. What most don't understand that if they should injure or kill someone, God forbide an innocent patron, it will absolutely ruin their life. Most clerks are instructed to give up the $$. Some posters want to nail us down to exactly what we would do and when. That shows lack of experience.

Exactly right. That one flier at the range is the one that ends up in someone's skull at Denny's....
 
Ok. Hold on a second, let me get this straight... Denny's says 'no guns'! That means the BG's are going to read the sign and say "OH NO! I can't go in there and create mayhem because they say 'no guns!'? I better go to IHOP and do my evil there!"?
Is Denny's really that stupid???

WHAT IDIOTS!!!!!

Or perhaps someone has thought it through on an intellectual level, rather than an NRA slogan level.

Very few "armed" robberies of establishments result in violence. Even bank robberies have very few injuries even though the bad guys have to enter deep into the establishment to rob a bank.

Like most restaurants, Denny's have the cash registers near the entrances. So it is even easier for a bad guy to get in and get out with the money than in a bank.

Thus Denny's security plan, like those of most banks, is to give the bad guys the money and get them off the premises with as little risk as possible to its employees and customers.

The two most likely things that would screw up that security plan are:

1. Am employee who tries to prevent the robbery; and

2. a customer who tries to intervene in the robbery.

Denny's can train its employees to eliminate the first problem.

It can prohibit customers from carrying weapons on the premise to help reduce the probability of the second.

In essence, Denny's no gun sign says "We don't want any idiots trying to intervene in a robbery and putting our employees and customers at a much higher risk of being injured or killed. If you are that type of an idiot perhaps you should eat elsewhere."

The no guns sign isn't for the bad guys - its for the other idiots.
 
Liklihood of me getting jammed up hard criminally and civilly if I shoot someone coming to the aid of a stranger in Massachusetts: 100%

Liklihood of a stranger intervening to help a family member of mine: .000000000001%

Karma has 0 bearing here and I'll play the percentages all day long.

Being a MA native, where people can break into your house, rob you and sue you AND WIN for tripping and hurting themselves, I have to agree with this.

But outside of MA where we have rights, I agree with NavyLCDR. You can't let people die or get hurt if you can stop it from happening. Here in VA if that happened and lives where in danger and I could do something about it, I would. Because I wouldn't fear jail for being the good guy.
 

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