"No matter what the BG does, you're going to shoot? You're not going to wait to see if the threatening behavior ceases?"
How long do you wait? If you have time to wait, you have time to escape. If you had time to wait, it must have not been that 'imminent' a threat?
I just don't like the idea of pointing a gun at someone, or holding them at gunpoint, you see... I'm not a cop, I have no responsibility to talk them down or prolong my foray into harms-way. They either are an imminent lethal threat, or they are not.
One, open carry is highly inappropriate in many situations.
Two, deciding to not shoot unless the BG doesn't back down is not relying on a deterrence factor. Once again, no one has suggested drawing a gun without the intent to shoot if necessary.
Three, you're addressing only one of thousands of possible scenarios.
Four, well, yes, perhaps you have missed the multiple posts where it was said that no one is drawing without the intent to shoot. Are YOU one of those who will shoot, even if the BG turns around and runs when you draw? The fact is, "brandishing" a gun IS a deterrent.
*Who ever said anything about pulling a gun out without being in immenent danger, without the intent to fire? It's getting silly that this point keeps being brought up as a bad idea, when no one has suggested doing it.
One, which scenarios?
Two, in real life stuff happens fast, a BG is not going to hail you from a distance giving you time to wait until the last possible moment. It IS the last possible moment from the beginning IF it really is an "imminent threat" justifying a draw.
Three, yes, I'm addressing the scenario in which one draws their gun on an imminent threat.
Four, no I would never shoot or threaten to shoot anyone who was not an imminent threat. Would you? Are you really expecting to draw your gun far enough in advance of imminent peril that they will change their mind? I promise, if there is time to deter them, I will give them plenty of reasons to do so other than threatening their life first.
I feel very sorry for the BG's who will encounter someone who will shoot them dead even if they turn and run, because they *were* an imminent threat.
I think we may have a little different idea about the time periods involved... I'm sitting here assuming that you think you're going to stand-off with a crack-head or rapist at gun-point for 30-seconds. That may account for some of the misunderstanding.
In my eyes, if I don't see a rapid deescalation before my muzzle is level, the trigger is pulled. It could happen, and likely does. But what's more likely is that most people will draw their gun very early in a confrontation before there is certainty of the BG's resolve, when it would be far more appropriate to declare that you will stop them if they attempt to harm you. And that's only if they are unarmed...
One would be a fool to give a 'moment to ponder' to an armed bg who has made clear their intent to harm you.
One, my scenario. I spend much of my time on private land, land in which the property owner is usually not pleased that I am there in the first place. Openly carrying a firearm would likely to be reacted to in a very negative manner, with results ranging from the property owner insisting that I do not carry firearms on their property (at which point I can't even concealed carry) to ordering me off the land, and loosing me the job.
Two, I'm very familiar with how violent crime happens in the real world. Probably far more familiar than you.
Three, no, you are addressing one possible scenario. There are thousands.
Four, I've answered that many, many times here. And yes, in the scenarios for which I carry, there is a good chance that drawing my firearm will put an end to the imminent threat.
One, that's your choice, and I wouldn't dream of criticizing it. I can't carry at work either.
Two, then you know what I mean. Violence is violent.
Three, there are many scenarios which lead up to drawing the gun, but after that point has been breached, your actions should be a reaction. If you have time to think about what you are doing, there was an alternative.
Four, okay, and are the clients okay with this? If you're confident that you're going to come across miscreants who won't follow through with their threats of hostility, why not carry some pepper-spray or a taser, too?
Great discussion!
I want to say that Ziggy's respect for the sanctity of human life shines through every post she writes, and it does her great credit. Molonlabetn is coming with some strong tactical analysis, and I enjoy reading that too.
It seems to me that we're almost answering a question that hasn't been explicitly asked yet:
Can a handgun be an effective and legal deterrant?
Molonlabetn has been saying that the effectiveness of a pistol as a deterrant is questionable once the legal requirements are reached. Ziggy seems to be accepting the diminished effectiveness as a trade-off for giving the BG more of a chance to change his mind, thus avoiding bloodshed. Am I being fair to both posters with my synopsis?
Great discussion!
I want to say that Ziggy's respect for the sanctity of human life shines through every post she writes, and it does her great credit. Molonlabetn is coming with some strong tactical analysis, and I enjoy reading that too.
It seems to me that we're almost answering a question that hasn't been explicitly asked yet:
Can a handgun be an effective and legal deterrant?
Molonlabetn has been saying that the effectiveness of a pistol as a deterrant is questionable once the legal requirements are reached. Ziggy seems to be accepting the diminished effectiveness as a trade-off for giving the BG more of a chance to change his mind, thus avoiding bloodshed. Am I being fair to both posters with my synopsis?
... but at my frustration with the many guys I've encountered who either state, or imply, that if they draw, they will shoot no matter what, and if they shoot, they will kill no matter what...
A good post, SPC, thank you, but let me just post one more time, trying not to yell, that I AM NOT UNCOMFORTABLE with carrying one in the tube, I choose not to for reasons already espoused. I am NOT afraid of negligent discharge, I am well trained, I am comfortable with my carry weapon. I choose to carry unchambered.
I respectfully disagree with Part A, for the reason I posited above: A situation can turn on a dime, and things can change from the time you draw to the time you fire. You may draw on an aggressor, but end up pointing at someone who recognizes his error and has become a retreater. Nobody wants to shoot someone inappropriately and an error in judgement ("Man, I picked the wrong person!") is not a Capital offense.If it's time to draw, it's time to shoot. A gun isn't for scaring people.
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