You Knew The Conditions Of Employment When You Took The Job

[Treo]

We’ve all seen the threads. “I took this job delivering pizza and I knew when they hired me I couldn’t carry but I’m going to anyway” I’ve always held that this is an unethical position but, I’m curious as to the opinions (and the rationale behind them) of other members.

So, you’re sitting in orientation for your new job. You glance through the employee handbook and it’s clearly stated that employees are not allowed to carry a firearm on company time under any circumstance. (The policy specifically does not prohibit you from keeping a firearm in your POV which you will never use for company business).

Is it ethical for you to take the job knowing you have every intention of carrying on the clock?

If you take the job is it ethical for you to carry?

 

[Miguel Denyer]

We’ve all seen the threads. “I took this job delivering pizza and I knew when they hired me I couldn’t carry but I’m going to anyway” I’ve always held that this is an unethical position but, I’m curious as to the opinions (and the rationale behind them) of other members.

So, you’re sitting in orientation for your new job. You glance through the employee handbook and it’s clearly stated that employees are not allowed to carry a firearm on company time under any circumstance. (The policy specifically does not prohibit you from keeping a firearm in your POV which you will never use for company business).

Is it ethical for you to take the job knowing you have every intention of carrying on the clock?

If you take the job is it ethical for you to carry?

Personally speaking, if the job requires you to travel the streets as a delivery person then no employer should be allowed the right to deny you the ability to carry if you are doing so within the letter of the law. Granted, if you work in a building owned by the company in question then they have the right to deny you entry into the building ONLY if they have a sign that clearly states that they prohibit the concealed carriage of a firearm - the law actually backs them up on this matter because if such a sign is posted and you carry anyway, you are now guilty of armed trespass. However, back to the point at hand ... the company in question, should they ban you from carrying whilst on a delivery route has no legal right to deny you your rights... it is unconstitutional to prevent a lawful citizen from carrying concealed if a valid concealed carry permit is held by the armed party.

Here is a good question to ask the employer... "Do you cover my life with enough life insurance to keep my family comfortable should I be killed on my way to or from work and while driving along any authorized route that the company expects me to take during the normal course of my shift given the fact that you are denying my right to defend myself against robbery or violent attack?"

You can pretty much bet hat they don't carry that kind of insurance on their employees and therefore have no right to place you in danger (pizza delivery persons are murdered all the time by bogus customers trying to rob them)... Just a few thoughts is all... I am tired right now so this may not read the way it is intended...

 

[Sig1911]

Ethical? No, if by ethical you mean being a person of your word. Yes, if by ethical you mean being true to a set of values that esteems personal integrity iilower than whatever those values are. I think the better plan would be to go and explain your position and ask for permission or some kind of special dispensation. If you don't and you are caught, you will likely lose your job, and jobs are hard to come by these days. Even worse - if you use the gun on the job and are prosecuted or sued as a result, then it's likely your failure to adhere to the company policy will be used against you in court.

 

[Terminal Lance]

As far as taking the job I don't feel that is unethical. Choosing to deliberately disobey their policy would be unethical in a literal sense. They might have the policy as a liability so of someone comes in and goes postal one day they aren't liable. However, I'm sure you can already guess what my response to that is going to be. To hell with their policy. I think it's unethical for them to deny you your right to personal protection. So long as you have a permit and keep it well concealed so as not to make some of the other employee's uncomfortable, I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed that right. If they catch you they will fore you. If you ask me though my personal safety is more important. I can always get another job, but there are no re-spawns in life.

 

[ramrunnr]

Speaking about purely hypothetical situations,

We’ve all seen the threads. “I took this job delivering pizza and I knew when they hired me I couldn’t carry but I’m going to anyway” I’ve always held that this is an unethical position but, I’m curious as to the opinions (and the rationale behind them) of other members.

Some people may have started carrying after they got the job. I know that some have got a job after, but you have to consider both ways.

So, you’re sitting in orientation for your new job. You glance through the employee handbook and it’s clearly stated that employees are not allowed to carry a firearm on company time under any circumstance. (The policy specifically does not prohibit you from keeping a firearm in your POV which you will never use for company business).

If a person does carry a firearm in this situation, then that person should expect the consequences of their actions should they be found out.

Is it ethical for you to take the job knowing you have every intention of carrying on the clock?

If you take the job is it ethical for you to carry?

The problems with ethics is that it is an opinion. What I consider ethical, you may consider unethical, and vice-versa.


You have to make the choices that you are comfortable with and live with them and their consequences. It is the same with me and everyone else on this planet. If you carry that is up to you and your personal ethics just be prepared to "pay the Piper", if it comes to that.

For me, I carry where it is legal for me to do so. A no-gun policy in the workplace is just like a "Gun-Buster" sign on the door for the employees, so I wouldn't carry there.

I don't want to get charged with anything that could cause me to lost my carry permit. On the other hand, I would also make it very clear that if the company's policy is to disarm me, that makes them responsible for my safety, and if I am injured do to there negligence then I am going to sue them for damages. If I'm armed and can't protect myself, then its my own fault.

 

[Firefighterchen]

My life is my responsibility. Period.

 

[jg1967]

It is not. But then again neither are many things companies do and they seem to get away with it. Sorry, it's too early and I feel too cynical right now...

 

[lima]

Actually I think what is unethical is companies instituting policies like that to cover their ends rather than allowing you to cover your's. They clearly view employees as expendable assets, so it would make sense for the employee to in turn view the job as expendable. As someone mentioned before, it's not like they provide excellent health and life insurance anyway. It is better to be fired because of a defensive shooting than killed as a helpless victim by thugs who only want the $20 on you and the pizza you're delivering.

On the other hand, I am in the military and am not allowed to carry personal weapons on the base. I do abide by this though because the situation is very different. The benefits are great, in the event of death my wife would be well taken care of, and the consequences of getting caught with a weapon are grave.

 

[kelcarry]

Ethical or not Sig said the most important part of the equation--you will be sued out of existence by the person or family of the person you shot AND your now - previous employer for violating their policy on gun carry. It seems like our society has totally become a "me" society irregardless of rules, agreements etal. You take a job and clearly know you cannot CC and you do so anyway? You are wrong, wrong, wrong and deserve to be prosecuted if not legally, certainly civilly. You can ask your questions like "will you give me life insurance if I cannot CC?" but that is about it.

 

[cartisdm]

I'm sure we're all aware of the current economical situation going on right now. Not everyone has the option to be picky about the job they take. And let's be honest, how many companies actually allow concealed carry? Is it ethical to disobey company regulations? No, I don't think so. Would I do it anyway? It depends entirely on the job.

If I was a pizza delivery man? Sure, I'd still carry. At my current job where I work in an office and working toward a lifelong career in system development? Hell no. I would stand a greater risk at hurting my family by losing my job than needing my firearm. Thankfully, NC will begin allowing me to keep my gun in my car during work on Dec. 1st

 

[Axeanda45]

What is unethical is an employer having the gall to even THINK they have the right to deny you the means to defend yourself.

 

[OpenCarryYes]

Ethical or not Sig said the most important part of the equation--you will be sued out of existence by the person or family of the person you shot AND your now - previous employer for violating their policy on gun carry. It seems like our society has totally become a "me" society irregardless of rules, agreements etal. You take a job and clearly know you cannot CC and you do so anyway? You are wrong, wrong, wrong and deserve to be prosecuted if not legally, certainly civilly. You can ask your questions like "will you give me life insurance if I cannot CC?" but that is about it.

I agree. This ME society is part of what is causing the moral decline of our country. The law gives your employer the RIGHT to deny firearms on their premesis. If you dont like that law then there are legal ways to get it changed. I dont like it any more than anyone else but it is what it is. In fact, I work in a former firearms factory turned into an office building and I cant carry either. However ironic that is, I still dont carry at work.

Here's another question to ponder while you respond to this thread. Would you CC if you didn't have a CCW? If you carry at work when it is wrong then why not CC without a permit?

 

[scottbland247]

What is unethical is an employer having the gall to even THINK they have the right to deny you the means to defend yourself.

. An employer isn't denying your right to anything because you can quit...an employer is offering terms and every day you show up you are accepting the terms

 

[Axeanda45]

I agree. This ME society is part of what is causing the moral decline of our country. The law gives your employer the RIGHT to deny firearms on their premesis. If you dont like that law then there are legal ways to get it changed.Ever hear of "Shall Not Be Infringed"? ANY law that goes against the Constitution/BOR is already an illegal/non-binding law, so why go about the "legal" way to fix it when "it" is illegal to begin with? I dont like it any more than anyone else but it is what it is. In fact, I work in a former firearms factory turned into an office building and I cant carry either. However ironic that is, I still dont carry at work.

Here's another question to ponder while you respond to this thread. Would you CC if you didn't have a CCW? If you carry at work when it is wrong then why not CC without a permit?

I wish I never would have gotten a CCW....... I wasnt very educated on firearms/Constitution/BOR when I got mine.... if I had it to do over, I would carry without any so-called "permit" to exercise my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, because I (anyone) do not need one to be "legal".......

 

[Axeanda45]

. An employer isn't denying your right to anything because you can quit...an employer is offering terms and every day you show up you are accepting the terms

Just the fact that I exist on this earth gives me the Right to defend myself with whatever i choose to do it with, wherever I happen to be (with VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS, incarceration being one).... To deny me employment because I am doing something that all living creatures have the right to do is IN FACT DENYING ME OF MY RIGHTS, it does not matter if the "law" says differently...

Why are many here so happy to defend all these infringements? I just dont get it... those on a GUN FORUM should know better.....

 

[OpenCarryYes]

I wish I never would have gotten a CCW....... I wasnt very educated on firearms/Constitution/BOR when I got mine.... if I had it to do over, I would carry without any so-called "permit" to exercise my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, because I (anyone) do not need one to be "legal".......

Yes, in a perfect world where everyone abided by the constitution your answer would be 100% correct. However, we (the collective WE in this case) have allowed our gov't to infringe on those rights over a very long period of time. What we have left, in this nation of laws, is the laws that we have allowed to be passed. What that means to most of us is that unless we want to go to jail and spend 10s of 1000s of $$ fighting it, we abide by the laws and protest so that our newly elected officials will see the mistakes of the past and help to right them. The OP was a question on the ethics of CC when your employer says no.

I fully understand the "Shall not be infringed upon" statement in the constition so please chill a bit. We have legal ways of getting our gov't back to being by the people and for the people. And yes, most of the people on this forum know better. So dont make us out to be unknowing and uncaring. For the most part, we are law abiding citizens and if the workplace rules dont fit CC and we cant change them, then we'll probably find a new job

 

[Treo]

An employer is not infringing upon your rights if he makes complying w/ his no carry rules a condition of employment; He is stating the conditions under which he will hire you and giving you the option of accepting those conditions or seeking employment elsewhere.

I don't carry at work.

That said, my employer states that having a weapon in your POV is against company policy and non compliance is punishable by termination. I ignore that rule because I consider my car to be my property. I lock my gun inside my car safe as soon as I park and I get it out when I leave for the day. I never take my gun inside my employer’s building

 

[bootsdeal]

I agree with Axeandra45 -- I wish I'd never got a CHL, and won't renew it when it expires. I'm a senior citizen, just got my CHL 2 years ago, but have carried 24/7 for over 40 years and never a problem, cause I do my dead level best to stay out of any kind of trouble. However, I've always been armed for my wife's and my protection. Right, wrong, or otherwise, that's been my choice and am completely willing to accept any consequences of any of my decisions.

 

[Axeanda45]

Yes, in a perfect world where everyone abided by the constitution your answer would be 100% correct. However, we (the collective WE in this case) have allowed our gov't to infringe on those rights over a very long period of time. What we have left, in this nation of laws, is the laws that we have allowed to be passed. What that means to most of us is that unless we want to go to jail and spend 10s of 1000s of $$ fighting it, we abide by the laws and protest so that our newly elected officials will see the mistakes of the past and help to right them. The OP was a question on the ethics of CC when your employer says no.

I fully understand the "Shall not be infringed upon" statement in the constition so please chill a bit. We have legal ways of getting our gov't back to being by the people and for the people. And yes, most of the people on this forum know better. So dont make us out to be unknowing and uncaring. For the most part, we are law abiding citizens and if the workplace rules dont fit CC and we cant change them, then we'll probably find a new job

First... I do NOT have a "chill" setting.... deal with it... Pussy-footing around the issues is what (partially) has gotten us here (present day/situation) to begin with..


You say here that we are a nation of laws... I put forth the argument that we WERE a nation of laws, but not any more.. The Federal (and most states in one way or another) have PROVEN that the "law" only applies to THEM when it benefits THEM.... If the "law" no longer applies to them, why in the hell does it still apply to us???????

I am NOT advocating Anarchy or Lawlessness, rather, I am advocating following the real "laws" this country was founded upon, (which includes the morality/values of the Christian type). If I follow the true law (shall not be infringed, 2nd Amendment), and carry a weapon into say, for example a county or city building where it is "unlawful" in that city/county/state, have I actually broken a "real law"? I submit that, no, I have NOT BROKEN ANY VALID, Constitutional laws. Yet, nearly all on this and other "gun" forums would condemn me for "breaking the law".

Many on here say/state/claim they are "law abiding citizens", in my opinion, most are still just sheep that have barely begun to wake up, and still know nearly NOTHING about how free we actually are according to the Constitution BEFORE it got ignored/infringed/contaminated by lawmakers.

Trying to argue that we should "work within the system" to make things better is mostly a pipe dream. I do concede that some headway has been made in recent yrs, but the headway has been overcome/passed (in the WRONG direction) by even further infringements.

Grow a pair, and STOP playing by THEIR rules........ They arent........

 

[scottbland247]

. An employer isn't denying your right to anything because you can quit...an employer is offering terms and every day you show up you are accepting the terms

Just the fact that I exist on this earth gives me the Right to defend myself with whatever i choose to do it with, wherever I happen to be (with VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS, incarceration being one).... To deny me employment because I am doing something that all living creatures have the right to do is IN FACT DENYING ME OF MY RIGHTS, it does not matter if the "law" says differently...

Why are many here so happy to defend all these infringements? I just dont get it... those on a GUN FORUM should know better.....

if I am paying you I can set the requirements I want (clothing, language, demeanor, production speed etc) if you choose not to accept my requirements I don't let you keep the job.....there is no infringement on you at all, your employment is at will and continues upon both parties continuing to voluntarily accept the terms of the other party