You couldn’t make timing like this up, first open carrier in my church last week

Cypher

Cypher

Child of the Night
First let me say that is a second hand account taken from the security incident report that was turned in by the volunteer involved. I don’t normally attend Wednesdays because it conflicts with my work schedule.

Male, mid thirties, casual dress, and small revolver (like maybe a snubbie) showed up at the Wednesday night service on the 21st open carrying. Leather holster with retention strap. Didn’t do anything weird, didn’t appear to be showing off the gun, sat in the main sanctuary. Volunteer (retired cop in this case) involved sat right behind him and spoke to him right after service explaining church policy.

Subject indicated understanding of church policy and voiced intent to comply.

The guy’s name was unfamiliar to me (not a huge shock), he may or may not have been a new guy. He didn’t jump on the chair and bewail his lost second amendment rights. He apparently apologized and said he’d conceal next time.
Some one want to look out the window and make sure we still have a republic?
 
This is what I find to be hilarious. It would seem as if your church policy is such that the guns that are hidden in your congregation are viewed as posing less danger and threat than the guns that are visible and you can know about and keep sight of. I'm just curious....have you polled the members who are "uncomfortable" at the sight of a holstered handgun to determine if they are comfortable with the presence of the guns so long as they can't see them?
 
The answer is no. Open carry is a choice I can't speak for my church but I certainly don't see the need to change a policy about something that has only happened once ever that I'm aware of. Especially when the guy in questions said "Ok, I'll cover it up next time."

If you think open carriers are this huge unreached people group go open a church that specifically reaches out to them.
 
Cypher said:
The answer is no. Open carry is a choice I can't speak for my church but I certainly don't see the need to change a policy about something that has only happened once ever that I'm aware of. Especially when the guy in questions said "Ok, I'll cover it up next time."

If you think open carriers are this huge unreached people group go open a church that specifically reaches out to them.
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So, how do you know your church policy of concealed carry only is satisfactory to those that are disturbed at the sight of the gun? How do you know it is only the guns they can see that they are afraid of, and not also the guns that are hidden? Or do you think "don't ask, don't tell" is good enough to appease their concerns. Isn't that being a bit deceitful?
 
Posted this in the other thread but it applies here as well

I don’t think every church is meant to be a fit for every believer. I don’t even think that every church is meant to be an exact fit for every believer, if you’re going to attend any church at all (and the Bible makes it quite clear that believers are to be involved in a local body) you are going to have to compromise.

I don’t agree with my Pastor on every issue. Based on Jude 1:9 he believes that it’s not a believer’s place to rebuke Satan but to ask the Lord to rebuke him for us. Based on Mark 16: 17 I believe it is absolutely a believer’s place to rebuke demons (I doubt very seriously that I even show up on Satan’s radar). As I don’t see this as a major doctrinal point of division I generally note it and remind myself that I disagree every time he says it and I listen to the rest of the message.

Similarly, I don’t see open carry as some huge doctrinal issue, I might if I was into it but I’m not so I don’t. If I came to a church that I agreed with in most points accept that one and the church felt like a fit and most importantly I believe that this was the church that God wanted me in I’d cover it up or even leave it in the car for that hour and a half. I’ll even go so far as to say that if I was certain that a given church was God’s choice for me and they were posted no weapons period I’d honor it. I’d leave a church over teaching baptism or a doctrine of works as a requirement for salvation before I’d leave one over whether or not I can carry a gun.

Having said all that I’ll say again that if your relationship with a given church starts with a fundamental disagreement that is that serious to you I’d advise you to find a different church but if I were to start every relationship with any church with that fundamental of a disagreement I’d take a very close look at me.
If you and I have a problem it’s a you and I problem but if you and I. you and she, you and he and you and them have a problem it’s a you problem
 
Here's where you run into the problem in the context of the Church.

Romans 12:17 teaches, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all." The Apostle Paul will teach in another passage (Romans 14) that it is sometimes necessary for believers to limit the exercise of their liberties (things to which they are fully entitled) to avoid offending others. Now, I'm not going to get into a drawn out exposition about what it means to "offend" someone in this context, but suffice it to say that it involves more than merely disrespecting someone's sensibilities. Still, the point remains that we sometimes limit our liberties in church; limit, not prohibit.

Carrying concealed in church where permitted by law (which, in Michigan, means only with the permission of the pastor or the board, as the case may be) is not a matter of being deceitful, it is a matter of recognizing that everybody is not on the same page where this issue is concerned. It recognizes that the person who wants to carry has the intrinsic right to do so, and it gives them a way to do so in a way that will not be a distraction to others. It is really that simple. If the leadership of the church recognize that the Bible clearly teaches that we have both the right AND THE RESPONSIBILITY to provide for our own security (trust me, many do not), then it gives them the opportunity to address it in a public manner. This works REALLY well when it is the pastor who is carrying - there is a growing number who do.
 
ezkl2230 said:
Carrying concealed in church where permitted by law (which, in Michigan, means only with the permission of the pastor or the board, as the case may be) is not a matter of being deceitful, it is a matter of recognizing that everybody is not on the same page where this issue is concerned. It recognizes that the person who wants to carry has the intrinsic right to do so, and it gives them a way to do so in a way that will not be a distraction to others. It is really that simple.
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I would be willing to bet that if you asked those same people in church who are "distracted" by open carry that they would be equally "distracted" if they knew how many people were carrying concealed firearms in the same church. To me, what is deceitful is catering to the "distracted" group by merely hiding the gun from them, when in reality, if you actually asked them, I'll bet they would be equally "distracted" by the presence of concealed firearms if they realized they were there.
 
NavyLCDR said:
I would be willing to bet that if you asked those same people in church who are "distracted" by open carry that they would be equally "distracted" if they knew how many people were carrying concealed firearms in the same church. To me, what is deceitful is catering to the "distracted" group by merely hiding the gun from them, when in reality, if you actually asked them, I'll bet they would be equally "distracted" by the presence of concealed firearms if they realized they were there.
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Again feel free to open a church that caters specifically to open carriers. Then watch how fast it becomes all about the guns and not about the cross
 
NavyLCDR said:
I would be willing to bet that if you asked those same people in church who are "distracted" by open carry that they would be equally "distracted" if they knew how many people were carrying concealed firearms in the same church. To me, what is deceitful is catering to the "distracted" group by merely hiding the gun from them, when in reality, if you actually asked them, I'll bet they would be equally "distracted" by the presence of concealed firearms if they realized they were there.
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Concealed carry is one of the few instances where "what they don't know won't hurt them" applies.
 
NavyLCDR said:
I would be willing to bet that if you asked those same people in church who are "distracted" by open carry that they would be equally "distracted" if they knew how many people were carrying concealed firearms in the same church. To me, what is deceitful is catering to the "distracted" group by merely hiding the gun from them, when in reality, if you actually asked them, I'll bet they would be equally "distracted" by the presence of concealed firearms if they realized they were there.
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Am I deceiving the public when I carry concealed? More to the point, is deception my intent? The answer to both questions is no.

I don't carry concealed in order to soothe anyone's nerves or to keep them from panicking. I carry concealed because that is the method with which I am most comfortable.

When I carry at church, I carry concealed for the same reason. I could carry openly, but I don't want to. Yes, where church is concerned, I am aware that there are those who would be concerned if they were to learn that someone was carrying, and I am aware that they would be concerned if they saw someone carrying openly. That's where individuals who carry have the opportunity to choose to limit their liberty to carry. Conversely, as those who carry would be uncomfortable if they were to leave their firearm at home, those who don't have the opportunity to choose to accept their decision to carry concealed.

That is the ideal.

Unfortunately, most churches are less than ideal, and it is the people who choose NOT to exercise their liberties that many times run roughshod over those who DO choose to exercise them. That's where teaching comes into play, and having a pastor and other church leaders who carry helps. The church is supposed to be a place where people who disagree can find ways to accommodate each other. I'm not talking about accommodation regarding issues of morality, right/wrong that the Bible addresses explicitly; those issues are non-negotiable. Whether or not you choose to carry a firearm doesn't happen to fall into one of those moral imperative areas - it is an issue of individual liberty (one for which I can make a STRONG Biblical case, BTW). As I have opportunity, I use these conversations to help bring others along. It's taking some doing, but I see successes here and there.
 
There is a huge difference between a personal decision to carry concealed, and a church policy that requires concealment because open carry will upset the members. Don't try to tell me that the church policy is in effect out of consideration of the feelings of those that are upset by the sight of the gun, because I will bet you a dollar against a doughnut hole that they are not upset at the mere sight of the gun, but they are upset at the presence of the gun near them or in the building. You aren't considering their feelings - you are only hiding what they are upset about from their sight.
 
NavyLCDR said:
There is a huge difference between a personal decision to carry concealed, and a church policy that requires concealment because open carry will upset the members. Don't try to tell me that the church policy is in effect out of consideration of the feelings of those that are upset by the sight of the gun, because I will bet you a dollar against a doughnut hole that they are not upset at the mere sight of the gun, but they are upset at the presence of the gun near them or in the building. You aren't considering their feelings - you are only hiding what they are upset about from their sight.
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I don’t know if you haven’t figured it out yet or just didn’t read the whole other thread but the church I attend is New Life Church of Colorado. You would have to be brain dead not to know that there are people carrying guns in my church. If you walk into a church like mine and sit down you have by default accepted the fact that there are going to be people around you with guns.

I look forward to the opening of your open carry friendly church though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings
 
the church does have the privilege to kick people out of there church for what ever reason . say wearing a camel hair suit.

though it is silly to assume that people are bothered by the wearing of a firearm.

but to let you know that church is not following scripture and will be heading in the wrong direction. so be careful what you chose
 
Cypher said:
I don’t know if you haven’t figured it out yet or just didn’t read the whole other thread but the church I attend is New Life Church of Colorado. You would have to be brain dead not to know that there are people carrying guns in my church. If you walk into a church like mine and sit down you have by default accepted the fact that there are going to be people around you with guns.

I look forward to the opening of your open carry friendly church though

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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How much more brain dead can someone be than to say, "That gun on your belt that I can see there bothers me - so please cover it up so it won't bother me any more." Psychologists can't agree whether the concept of object permanence is present from birth - or develops in the first two years of childhood. But by two years old a person who is not brain dead is supposed to be able to grasp that just because the object cannot be seen does not mean that it doesn't exist. Yet, for some reason, the concept of object permanence when applied to firearms seems beyond the grasp of those that feel better when they simply can't see the firearms that they know are hidden.
 
NavyLCDR said:
How much more brain dead can someone be than to say, "That gun on your belt that I can see there bothers me - so please cover it up so it won't bother me any more." Psychologists can't agree whether the concept of object permanence is present from birth - or develops in the first two years of childhood. But by two years old a person who is not brain dead is supposed to be able to grasp that just because the object cannot be seen does not mean that it doesn't exist. Yet, for some reason, the concept of object permanence when applied to firearms seems beyond the grasp of those that feel better when they simply can't see the firearms that they know are hidden.
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Again let me know when you open "Our Lady of the Open Carry" I'll attend your first service in support
 
Cypher said:
Again let me know when you open "Our Lady of the Open Carry" I'll attend your first service in support
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Not that Navy needs my help, but is that the best you can do? Really?

Sorry none of my business. Just pretty damn petty. imho
 
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