You are NOT always responsible for the bullet that leaves your gun.

Rowdy Yates

New member
In most circumstances you are, however, if you’re defending your life or the life of a loved one from the actions of a criminal, then that criminal is responsible for everything that unfolds in that encounter. If a third party is injured or even killed inadvertently by the actions of a victim engaged in a life and death struggle with a criminal the blame does not lay with victim, but with the criminal. In no way does this argument give anyone a license to be reckless or forego proper training. You should always be mindful of bystanders and your backstop. But, if something goes wrong and you, as the victim, make a “mistake” the criminal is morally responsible.

I make no claims as to what the law says on this issue. Knowing who writes the laws and how many immoral laws are on the books, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.
 
Yeah, so this is my first post. I am new here, but I've been reading the forum for a while. My wife and I just sent our ccw app off a couple of weeks ago. I am a real person interested in this subjuct.

What do you think about the merits of my argument. I know it goes counter to some of the opinions that I've read here, but I haven't made any outlandish claims.
 
I may well be totally wrong, but as far as I'm concerned, personal responsibility comes into play here. You may be forced to use deadly force, but you better know, as far as possible, what/who is downrange of that shot. The criminal is responsible for the situation, you are responsible, on a moral level for deciding to shoot or not.
 
In TX if you hit/injure/kill an inocent bystander you screwd even if you are defending your life. Always be awere of what is beyond your intended target!
 
What you are MISTAKENLY referring to is what some states call the Felony Murder Law. If a death occurs during a felony, the felons can be charged with murder regardless of who directly caused the death. Even if one of the felons is killed by police fire.

This does not mean someone else could not be charged also. A careless CCW fires at the BG and hits an innocent, the BG gets charged with Felony Murder and the CCW gets charged with Manslaughter. Both civil & criminal law still attach to the CCW.
 
Yeah, so this is my first post. I am new here, but I've been reading the forum for a while. My wife and I just sent our ccw app off a couple of weeks ago. I am a real person interested in this subjuct.

What do you think about the merits of my argument. I know it goes counter to some of the opinions that I've read here, but I haven't made any outlandish claims.

I would consider it without merit for the reasons others have posted - your negligent actions are not fully excused by the criminal actions of another. In addition, going into carrying a concealed weapon thinking that, if confronted, one can just start firing in the general direction without regard for bystanders and backdrop is not a good idea.
 
In most circumstances you are, however, if you’re defending your life or the life of a loved one from the actions of a criminal, then that criminal is responsible for everything that unfolds in that encounter. If a third party is injured or even killed inadvertently by the actions of a victim engaged in a life and death struggle with a criminal the blame does not lay with victim, but with the criminal. In no way does this argument give anyone a license to be reckless or forego proper training. You should always be mindful of bystanders and your backstop. But, if something goes wrong and you, as the victim, make a “mistake” the criminal is morally responsible.

I make no claims as to what the law says on this issue. Knowing who writes the laws and how many immoral laws are on the books, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.

Do me a favor and go sell your guns. You should not own one with your reckless attitude.
 
Your opinion is not rooted in law and that is what covers the bullets that leave my gun. Very bad opinion/advice.
 
I would consider it without merit for the reasons others have posted - your negligent actions are not fully excused by the criminal actions of another. In addition, going into carrying a concealed weapon thinking that, if confronted, one can just start firing in the general direction without regard for bystanders and backdrop is not a good idea.

Maybe I missed something but I didn't see anything about negligent action. It is entirely possible that you could shoot an innocent bystander either by missing or by having a bullet go through the BG and strike someone behind him (something that was forgiven when cops were using ball 9mm ammo).
 
First how and where did you and your wife get your ccw permit? If it was through a class where you had to sit in, they should have told you all the info you require and since you’re asking this question I would surmise that you obtained your ccw permit through a on line class, never a good choice, I don’t trust these paper mills, you answer a few questions and give them your money a poof you’ve got a ccw permit. If your smart enough to ask the question, I’ll bet you already have a gut feeling as to the correct answer. If you let a bullet leave your gun, you own it, no matter what it hit’s or does.
 
First how and where did you and your wife get your ccw permit? If it was through a class where you had to sit in, they should have told you all the info you require and since you’re asking this question I would surmise that you obtained your ccw permit through a on line class, never a good choice, I don’t trust these paper mills, you answer a few questions and give them your money a poof you’ve got a ccw permit.

I bet those states that have no training requirement really chap your ass.

If your smart enough to ask the question,

Oh the irony
 
As someone certified to teach NY gun laws I'll give it to you straight... YOU are responsible for every round that leaves your gun. And the law is nearly the same in every state. YOU may not take the shot, even if your life is in jeopardy, unless you have a clear background. Although the criminal can be charged (depending on state) with every death resulting from his actions, YOU have the ultimate civil responsibility for the damage YOUR round causes. There is a lawyer attached to every bullet that leaves your gun. And while you may potentially prevail in a legal action, the damage is already done. A legal defense can cost up to $100K in such actions. So say goodbye to the house equity, retirement fund, 401K or kids college money. As someone new to the gun world I suggest two things. First, take a good safety course followed by a good personal protection class... one given by a top academy. Second, read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob. It's an eye-opener. [/I]
 
The criminal has nothing to loose and has most likely been through the system before. They know the state will take care of them. You on the other hand will be judged in the court of public opinion. Thanks to the main stream media, in many cases, the purp will be portrayed as the victim. Carrying a gun requires personal responsibility and constant situational awareness. As has been stated before once that bullet leaves the barrel you own it and every thing it comes in contact with. In the split second you may have to think about shoot or no shoot, choose wisely.
 
Maybe I missed something but I didn't see anything about negligent action. It is entirely possible that you could shoot an innocent bystander either by missing or by having a bullet go through the BG and strike someone behind him (something that was forgiven when cops were using ball 9mm ammo).
You could still be liable in a civil suit. Times ain't what they used to be. Even the greatest shot on earth won't stop a money hungry tort lawyer from filing a suit against you.
 
I’m going to set some of you people straight. I have been smeared, and my comments have been misrepresented by people who can’t comprehend a simple paragraph of English or by people who are being outright dishonest. If you fall into either of these groups, listen up, I’m talking to you.

1) I am familiar with felony murder, and no, I was not “MISTAKENLY referring” to it, although, it is related in a general way. I am arguing what is moral, not what is necessarily legal – I made that point explicitly.

2) SFC, way to build a flimsy straw man of my argument. I never suggested that “one can just start firing in the general direction without regard for bystanders”. In fact, I said that one should always be mindful of bystanders. It’s ironic, but you need to reread your Russell quote. I think it applies here.

3) I don’t have a “reckless attitude”; I have a different moral opinion on a very difficult situation/scenario. I’m anything but reckless. I am very careful with my firearms and any other potentially dangerous object, and I have never had an accident involving a firearm.

4) What covers the bullets that leave my gun is my best judgment, not necessarily the law. Hopefully these two things don’t conflict. But if they do, I’m taking the actions that I judge to be necessary to defend my family – even if I have to pay the legal price for it, my family’s safety is worth that to me. If you let the law restrain you from doing what is necessary to defend your family from an imminent threat, then I feel badly for your family.

5) mmckee1952, I have no idea what you’re saying. I was not asking a question at all. I was stating my opinion. For the record, we took an official all-day class that was put on by our local sheriff’s office. It was some of the worst training that I have ever received. It was full of personal anecdotes given by every LEO in the room. Whenever someone ask a specific question dealing the law the instructor would bob and weave giving qualified and evasive answers before he’d get sidetracked by one of his “back in the day” stories.

6) Lastly, as a former infantry platoon leader, I am far from new to the gun world. Of course, I am new to concealed carry, which is why I’m on this forum.

Some of you, seems to me, blindly subscribe to any cliché that is repeated often enough, such as “no matter what you own the bullet”. And some of you view the law as the final moral authority on any subject. Let me present a scenario to you. If you were to wake up at 3:30 in the morning to a man with a gun climbing into your window that just happened to overlook your neighbor’s home, would you take the shot? You could be groggy, nervous, and/or scared and miss the intruder. Where would that bullet go? Or, you could even hit the intruder, maybe in the neck and get over penetration. Don’t forget, your neighbor’s house is directly behind the BG. Are you not going to take the shot? If you would, then you’re a hypocrite and you owe me an apology. If you wouldn’t, then you don’t value your family enough, and if I were you, I wouldn’t let them read this thread.
 
He's right. He did specify he meant morally and that he wasn't speaking legally. I didn't respond to him directly but I missed seeing that too.
 

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