Woodland Mall, Grand Rapids, MI

[ezkl2230]

The following sign is located at every major mall entrance. See point 8 of the behavior expectations.

 

[SCTom]

I would take that to mean if you have a permit, you are authorized.

 

[HaroldB]

You need to know

I posted last year the same thing, keep in mind if you are not aware and enter though any other entrance its not posted like I did I wasn't aware until I was stopped by 3 guards and a LEO standing by. Asked to leave I did. They need to post all entrances not just one.

 

[DFuller]

On the bright side at least it states that the penalty for NOT following the rules is that you would be asked to leave. According to the rules you would only be charged with trespass if you REFUSED to leave after being discovered carrying.

As long as you carry concealed the only time it would ever be seen is if you need to defend yourself. Is it worth the risk to you?


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[NOLA Carry]

Here In La we have malls like this too. your braking the rules by the time you even see it because its inside. Its small and not noticeable you can get away with saying you did not see it.

 

[Deserteagle]

Well you have 2 options: Stop going there and giving them your business, or keep going there and carrying your gun anyway.

I would choose option number 1 unless I really needed to go there, in which case I would carry anyway.

 

[sdprof]

Probably every mall has similar rules of conduct posted in inconspicuous places. And almost never on the separate entrances of the anchor stores (Sears, Penny's, etc.)

Concealed is as concealed does.

 

[Itstjs]

I noticed the Genesee Valley Mall has a similar sign now, except its posted in the main hallways after you have already entered the store and have walked through either, Sears, JC Penny, Kohls or Burlington Coat factory. I dont stop and read them, in accordance to state law, if its not a state recognized no carry sign, it doesnt constitute you breaking any law, and either way, I dont give a damn if they have the sign or not. Im not letting some corporate prick tell me where I can and cant carry or protect myself. If its not on my card, they know what to kiss. Worst they can do is ask me to leave or take it outside.

 

[bfreak72]

sign what sign, i didn't see ant sign.......
Depends on what state you reside in that sign might not even be legally enforceable.

 

[ezkl2230]

It is posted at ALL mall entrances.

 

[ezkl2230]

Depends on what state you reside in that sign might not even be legally enforceable.

It is in Michigan. Working on changing that.

 

[ezkl2230]

I would take that to mean if you have a permit, you are authorized.

How do you get that interpretation out of "an authorized law enforcement or security officer"? First of all, a CPL (CCW) doesn't deputize you; it doesn't confer law enforcement status on you. And second, even if you are "A" security officer, that doesn't mean that the mall has OK'd you as an "AUTHORIZED" security officer. Woodland Mall owners have applied the concepts behind the federal gun free school zone act to their mall: in order to carry at Woodland Mall, you have to be someone who is authorized specifically by the mall to carry (their own security guards can't, for all the good THAT does), or you must be an ACTIVE DUTY LEO in the mall carrying out official business. Even off-duty LEOs aren't permitted to carry there, and since the mall is considered to be private property under state law, there is nothing an off-duty or retired LEO can do to change that. If you honestly believe that receiving your CPL (CCW) deputizes you in some way or confers LEO status on you, then you need to re-take your CPL class.

 

[dcselby1]

I would take that to mean if you have a permit, you are authorized.

Then you should read it again.

 

[Highv]

Freedom?

I noticed the Genesee Valley Mall has a similar sign now, except its posted in the main hallways after you have already entered the store and have walked through either, Sears, JC Penny, Kohls or Burlington Coat factory. I dont stop and read them, in accordance to state law, if its not a state recognized no carry sign, it doesnt constitute you breaking any law, and either way, I dont give a damn if they have the sign or not. Im not letting some corporate prick tell me where I can and cant carry or protect myself. If its not on my card, they know what to kiss. Worst they can do is ask me to leave or take it outside.

Can anyone say "unalienable God given rights" anymore?

 

[ezkl2230]

Can anyone say "unalienable God given rights" anymore?

Evidently "private property" rights (even though businesses are truly places of public accommodation - yeah, I know the arguments BC1 will raise in disagreement with that idea) trump Constitutional rights. I emailed that question to Eugene Volokh a few days ago, this is his response:

(1) Indeed, constitutional rights generally restrict only government
action (with a very few exceptions that are not relevant here).

(2) Of course, there are many more rights than constitutional rights.
Statutes routinely create or recognize rights that are enforceable against
private entities, and so do common-law judicial decisions. But my view is that,
generally speaking, property owners should indeed be free to decide what
people may do on their property. If they want to restrict what you say on their
property (as schools, businesses, and malls commonly do), they should be free
to do that, and those who dislike it can patronize other businesses. If they don't
want to allow abortion providers on their property, or contraceptive vendors,
they should be free to do that. Likewise, if they want to bar guns from their
property, they should be free to do that as well.

(3) The question whether some such rules should lead to a tort claim in
case the lack of a gun causes a visitor to be unable to defend himself when
attacked is a separate question. I'm inclined to say that this is an area where
tort law should stay out. If you go onto property knowing that you aren't
allowed to carry a gun, you're accepting both the possible costs and possible
benefits of their rule, whatever they might be (the jury is still out on that one).
If you don't like that, don't patronize that business.

So we are legally free to carry until so many businesses post themselves as "gun free" that it becomes nearly impossible to carry in public and the Second Amendment is done away with by consensus.

 

[ezkl2230]

Can anyone say "unalienable God given rights" anymore?

Evidently private property rights (even though a business is really a place of public accommodation and not private property in the same way as our homes - and yeah, I know the arguments BC1 will bring to disagree with that idea) trump Constitutional rights. I emailed that question to Eugene Volokh a few days ago, this is his response:

Mr. Volokh,

There are those who opine that Constitutional rights apply only in the
vertical relationship between the citizen and the government, but have no
application on the horizontal level between citizens. The following statement was made
on a forum to which I contribute frequently: "...The GOVERNMENT may not
infringe on your rights. It does not apply to you and I. I'm free to infringe
on your rights... thank God! In fact it benefits me as the property owner..."

The context is second amendment rights as they apply specifically to the
premises of businesses. We have seen that the vast majority of attacks that
have garnered so much attention nationally have occurred in so-called
"pistol free zones" - businesses, malls, schools The contention of this particular
individual is that we as the general public surrender any claims we might
have to our own self defense the moment we enter a business. The owner of that
business can arbitrarily declare our right to self defense null and void
without incurring any additional liability for what might happen to a client or
employee as the result of their enforcement of a no carry policy.

I understand that you are a very busy person, but I would greatly appreciate
your input on this matter.

His response:

(1) Indeed, constitutional rights generally restrict only government
action (with a very few exceptions that are not relevant here).

(2) Of course, there are many more rights than constitutional rights.
Statutes routinely create or recognize rights that are enforceable against
private entities, and so do common-law judicial decisions. But my view is that,
generally speaking, property owners should indeed be free to decide what
people may do on their property. If they want to restrict what you say on their
property (as schools, businesses, and malls commonly do), they should be free
to do that, and those who dislike it can patronize other businesses. If they don't
want to allow abortion providers on their property, or contraceptive vendors,
they should be free to do that. Likewise, if they want to bar guns from their
property, they should be free to do that as well.

(3) The question whether some such rules should lead to a tort claim in
case the lack of a gun causes a visitor to be unable to defend himself when
attacked is a separate question. I'm inclined to say that this is an area where
tort law should stay out. If you go onto property knowing that you aren't
allowed to carry a gun, you're accepting both the possible costs and possible
benefits of their rule, whatever they might be (the jury is still out on that one).
If you don't like that, don't patronize that business.

So we are legally free to carry until so many businesses post themselves as "gun free" that it becomes a practical impossibility to carry in public and the Second Amendment is done away with by consensus.

 

[Nightmare45]

Any business can restrict entry to property under their control, however; if I am not allowed to protect my self, I will take my business elsewhere, or if assualted in their business sue the pant off of them.

 

[phil57]

I just got back from Woodland Mall and I looked at the entrance I went in an there was not a sign. I carried and of course know one new. I did talk to mall security and asked how much trouble they had at this mall as it was getting rough here for awhile. He said they still had some issues with kids hanging out but it was better. I didn't tell h I was CC and he was polite enough not to ask. I did see a sign on the way out it is a large sign that has one line about CC and know one would ever read it. My take was it was a way to kick out anyone that was open carry.