Wisconsin Carry, Inc fast-tracking lawsuit against Madison Police Department

[bnhcomputing]

On Saturday September 18th, Wisconsin Carry received a call to our hotline about an incident in progress at a Culvers Restaurant in Madison, WI.

5 of our members who had met at previous WCI events and on the opencarry.org discussion forum planned to get together for dinner at Culvers Restaurant near East Towne in Madison, WI. They were, of course, open-carrying as they do every day.

Based on information gathered over the past several days here are the facts of the case:

Our members had finished dinner and were outside preparing to leave when 8 Madison Police officers arrived and began to demand ID. Officers told the members that if they did not produce ID they would be arrested.

2 of the 5 declined to provide ID. Wisconsin law does NOT allow officers to demand ID from individuals who have done nothing wrong. Wisconsin law also specifically does not allow officers to arrest an individual who has done nothing wrong for merely refusing to show ID.

2 of our members were subsequently arrested and charged with obstructing.

It was later learned that a 62 year old woman in the restaurant had called 911 and inquired as to whether it was legal for people to openly carry firearms. The caller indicated there was no disturbance but she was "worried". Madison Police responded, not by informing the caller that open-carry is legal, but rather sending 8 officers to respond to a peaceful situation.

It is a person's choice whether or not they wish to provide the police their ID when they have done nothing wrong. Without knowing the motivation of officers who are aggressively demanding ID and threatening arrest, its understandable why a person who has done nothing wrong would want to maintain their privacy. Its IMPERATIVE that police follow the law. Police are not allowed to arrest you for merely failing to provide ID. If the police can operate outside of the law, it does us NO good to vote and elect legislators to represent us and pass laws if the police will make-up and enforce whatever they feel like enforcing.

Wisconsin Carry fully expected that on Monday morning, those with an education in the law would return to their office from the weekend and promptly recognize the error made by the officers on the scene.

Madison Police DID recognize their error and rescinded the tickets for obstruction that were issued to 2 of our members. Madison Police admit in a press release those tickets were given in error. Madison Police then issued Disorderly Conduct citations to ALL 5 of our members. According to Madison Police, if ONE person is 'worried', even though there is no disturbance, your constitutional rights mean nothing. Wisconsin's Attorney General CLEARLY stated in a memo in April of 2009 that open-carry IS NOT disorderly conduct.

Madison Police then continued their disregard for Wisconsin residents constitutional rights by issuing a statement indicating that Madison police will: Approach anyone who is open-carrying using "the proper tactical response. The individual should be contacted, controlled, and frisked for weapons if appropriate. Officers should separate the suspect from any weapons in his/her possession during the encounter."

Read the press release here:

Link Removed

As such, Wisconsin Carry will be fast-tracking a federal lawsuit against the Madison Police Department for this policy which is a blatant and defenseless violation of the rights of law-abiding citizens who are doing nothing wrong.

Wisconsin Carry will also, if needed, retain an attorney to challenge the Disorderly Conduct citations issued to 5 of our members.

Wisconsin Carry feels this is a fundamental issue, and a situation that has implications for every resident in the state of Wisconsin. Police Departments all across the state have received the AG memo and responded accordingly training officers in the appropriate and lawful response to a law-abiding citizen open-carrying. Madison MUST be held to the same standard. Wisconsin law apply's to everyone in the state, not just those outside of Madison. Its imperative that the Madison Police Department follow the law. Very soon, we expect Wisconsinites to have the ability to legally conceal carry. If police do not respect the legal right to open-carry we already have, how can we expect them to respect the right to conceal carry that we all seek as well?

WE NEED YOUR HELP.

In order to get this lawsuit filed quickly, we need donations to fund the legal fee's.

If you can donate specifically for the "Madison 5" lawsuit please visit our homepage:

Welcome to Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

On the main page you will see a "Donate" button where you can make a donation that will go specifically to this "Madison 5" lawsuit.

You may also mail a donation to:

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
P.O. Box 270403
Milwaukee, WI 53227

This incident has received a huge amount of attention from the media. Its possible it may even garner national attention in the near future.

Many discussions regarding the incident, and links to media coverage of the incident are taking place on the discussion forums at opencarry.org:

Link Removed

You may also follow this and other Wisconsin Carry activities by joining Wisconsin Carry's facebook group: Search "Wisconsin Carry, Inc" or "Wisconsin Carry" on facebook.

If you haven't already done so, we also invite you to officially join Wisconsin Carry from out website as well. Membership is $15 for the first year.

Please spread this information to other online gun forums etc as we seek to protect and expand the rights of Wisconsin residents to carry.

Wisconsin Carry, Inc is a non-profit all volunteer organization. We are dedicated to the protection and expansion of the rights of law-abiding Wisconsinites to carry in the manner of their choosing. We believe that "open carry" or "conceal carry" are choices to be made by YOU the law abiding citizen based on what suits your needs. As open-carry is (with a few exceptions where conceal carry is already found legal) the only way to currently carry in Wisconsin, we advocate that all who wish to carry follow state law while we pursue an expansive conceal carry right for all law-abiding Wisconsinites during the next legislative session.

Carry On,

 

[Midnight]

And this is why Wisconsin needs to pass concealed carry laws. Join 48 other states in the 21st century, you knuckleheads!

 

[bnhcomputing]

CCW is not the cure all

And this is why Wisconsin needs to pass concealed carry laws. Join 48 other states in the 21st century, you knuckleheads!

If the WI police are violating the law NOW, what makes anybody think they will FOLLOW the law tomorrow.

 

[Midnight]

If the WI police are violating the law NOW, what makes anybody think they will FOLLOW the law tomorrow.

I know what you mean. I think these kinds of problems would be largely avoided if people had a choice in that state how they can carry their guns. But yeah, nothing excuses the police for this, especially after the AG released a statement about it.

 

[yale]

I know what you mean. I think these kinds of problems would be largely avoided if people had a choice in that state how they can carry their guns. But yeah, nothing excuses the police for this, especially after the AG released a statement about it.

So then what happens if, after Conceal Carry is allowed, those who still choose to lawfully open carry continue to be harrassed? It's good that some of you want the state to legalize conceal carry but you already have legal open carry and you are still not free to do that. The arguement shouldn't be "If we could hide our guns this sort of thing wouldn't happen". It should be "We shouldn't have to fear being arrested for not committing a crime".

 

[NavyLCDR]

So then what happens if, after Conceal Carry is allowed, those who still choose to lawfully open carry continue to be harrassed? It's good that some of you want the state to legalize conceal carry but you already have legal open carry and you are still not free to do that. The arguement shouldn't be "If we could hide our guns this sort of thing wouldn't happen". It should be "We shouldn't have to fear being arrested for not committing a crime".

A great big +1 to that!

 

[Bighouse Doc]

"When police break the law, there is no law. Just a fight for survival."-Billy Jack

-Doc

 

[crowsnake]

I was getting ready to post this when I saw it was already here.

The thing that hits me the hardest is the person who called was not being mean or totally freaking out. She was just telling the dispatcher and asking what was up. She was asking if they were police. Once the dispatcher told her it was now legal to open carry she was sorry she called. She never wanted to get them in trouble. She said they were not threatening.

I think her phone number and license plate should have been bleeped out. She does not need to be called and harassed by some over zealous person. She did not intend to cause trouble and if she had known it was legal she would not have even called. It was the POLICE who got carried away. And we do not know what happened after they got there either.

Most LEO's are pro CCW. and pro Carry. So maybe the guys got righteous and snotty with the LEO's? We just do not know the details, jumping on our high horses without knowing the details makes us look like bad guys if we are wrong. I mean come on, if they got snotty with the cops and then we all jump behind them we look bad. Yes they had the right to carry. But we just do not know the details. We were not there. The citations did not reflect gun carry as much as it did, maybe getting snotty with the cops....??? If they refused to present ID then they were egging the cops on. What were they doing running around with guns and not carrying their ID? Why did they want to be assholes and not present ID. Sure they had the right not too, but why stir the pot? If they got snotty and refused to present ID then they were asking for trouble. We have to give our ID when pulled over in a car. So what is the big deal. Chances are if they had been nice they would have just looked at the ID's and let them go, possibably not even running the numbers. I mean really if your ID is expired or whatever U should get that taken care of before you go around Open carrying.

It just seems odd to me that LEO's would do that, I guess it could be like some Illinois State Police, they have big chips on their shoulders about CC holders driving through their state.. And Wisconsin is a black state, the only other black state beside Illinois.

Allowing open carry and denying CC. just seems silly. Open carry is just going to scare the Non gun people. I saw a holster clip on a guy on Undercover Boss last night. I was trying to decide if it was a MIC clip or a gun clip, but it was wide SOB, and metal. Sure looked like a nicely made gun belt clip. And it was in Florida. leasantry: Do not think they would have let him be on TV with open carry.

So do I think they should fight the citations? YES. A prescient needs to be set so other Open carry people do not get stopped for nothing. could it have been handled better? No doubt about that or we would not be here.

 

[gregory44mag]

Dont you know that alot of police think they are above the law? How many times have you seen a LEO scream past you on the expressway, no lights or sirens, probably on his way home?

 

[crowsnake]

:laugh: You know I got unessesarily flamed repeatedly by clking9mm on another thread for stating that the Glock does not use clips to feed ammo, they all use magazines. That being said you can use a clip with a Glock. it's called the clipdraw.

Order Clipdraw - The Original Clipdraw for Glocks

That's what a Glock clip looks like. I guess you could consider it to be a semi-auto shooters answer to the Barami Hip Grip revolver grip.

I was not talking about magazines at all. I was talking about the metal CLIP that goes around your BELT to hold your holster on. Surely that is still called a CLIP?
Or it could have been a clip to hold their TV Mic on but it looked too wide and heavy for that, and it looked Metal. It looked like the metal part of a SOB holster.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So maybe the guys got righteous and snotty with the LEO's? We just do not know the details, jumping on our high horses without knowing the details makes us look like bad guys if we are wrong. I mean come on, if they got snotty with the cops and then we all jump behind them we look bad. Yes they had the right to carry. But we just do not know the details. We were not there. The citations did not reflect gun carry as much as it did, maybe getting snotty with the cops....??? If they refused to present ID then they were egging the cops on. What were they doing running around with guns and not carrying their ID? Why did they want to be assholes and not present ID. Sure they had the right not too, but why stir the pot? If they got snotty and refused to present ID then they were asking for trouble. We have to give our ID when pulled over in a car. So what is the big deal. Chances are if they had been nice they would have just looked at the ID's and let them go, possibably not even running the numbers. I mean really if your ID is expired or whatever U should get that taken care of before you go around Open carrying.

Excuse me?!?

1. The police had no reports from the 911 caller to indicate any illegal activity was occurring.
2. When the police arrived, they saw no indication that any illegal activity was occurring.
3. In response to, "Why did they want to be assholes and not present ID" I would counter with why did the assholes wearing the uniforms detain law abiding citizens in the first place?!? And I only use that derogatory word to show that the initiators of the confrontation were not the people who were abiding by the law. They were the people wearing the uniforms who were not abiding by the law. Absent of any suspicion of a crime being committed, the officers had no reason to even approach the subjects, let alone detain them.
4. There is no law in Wisconsin that requires a person to carry ID because they are also carrying a gun.

5. Then we come to this whole idea of the cops "checking them out" which a lot of people don't seem to have a problem with. They say felons can't carry guns and how were the cops to know these guys weren't felons? Let me put it to you this way: Kidnapping is a crime. What if you were sitting at McDonald's eating lunch with one or more children, who just happened to be yours. A lady calls 911 and says, "There is a guy eating in McDonald's with 2 kids and I don't know if that is legal." Multiple cops show up at McDonald's and demand to see your identification and proof the kids are yours or they are going to charge you with kidnapping. AND, on top of that, if the woman says she is afraid for her child's safety because you MIGHT be a kidnapper, they write you a citation for disturbing the peace! There is nothing less legal about wearing a gun while eating at McDonald's then eating at McDonald's with kids.

Chances are if they had been nice they would have just looked at the ID's and let them go, possibably not even running the numbers.

Nope. The Chief of Police and the alderpersons of Madison have already said that WON'T happen. They won't let law abiding citizens carrying guns run free Madison.

Do you even know the Wisconsin law regarding "Stop and ID?"

968.24
968.24 Temporary questioning without arrest. After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.

So I ask, at what time did the officer have reasonable suspicion that the subjects were committing, about to commit or has committed a crime? A lawfully worn gun in a holster is no more suspicion of a crime than eating at a table with kids at McDonald's would be suspicious of kidnapping.

 

[GETMRUTN]

Excuse me?!?

1. The police had no reports from the 911 caller to indicate any illegal activity was occurring.
2. When the police arrived, they saw no indication that any illegal activity was occurring.
3. In response to, "Why did they want to be assholes and not present ID" I would counter with why did the assholes wearing the uniforms detain law abiding citizens in the first place?!? And I only use that derogatory word to show that the initiators of the confrontation were not the people who were abiding by the law. They were the people wearing the uniforms who were not abiding by the law. Absent of any suspicion of a crime being committed, the officers had no reason to even approach the subjects, let alone detain them.
4. There is no law in Wisconsin that requires a person to carry ID because they are also carrying a gun.

5. Then we come to this whole idea of the cops "checking them out" which a lot of people don't seem to have a problem with. They say felons can't carry guns and how were the cops to know these guys weren't felons? Let me put it to you this way: Kidnapping is a crime. What if you were sitting at McDonald's eating lunch with one or more children, who just happened to be yours. A lady calls 911 and says, "There is a guy eating in McDonald's with 2 kids and I don't know if that is legal." Multiple cops show up at McDonald's and demand to see your identification and proof the kids are yours or they are going to charge you with kidnapping. AND, on top of that, if the woman says she is afraid for her child's safety because you MIGHT be a kidnapper, they write you a citation for disturbing the peace! There is nothing less legal about wearing a gun while eating at McDonald's then eating at McDonald's with kids.



Nope. The Chief of Police and the alderpersons of Madison have already said that WON'T happen. They won't let law abiding citizens carrying guns run free Madison.

Do you even know the Wisconsin law regarding "Stop and ID?"

968.24
968.24 Temporary questioning without arrest. After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.

So I ask, at what time did the officer have reasonable suspicion that the subjects were committing, about to commit or has committed a crime? A lawfully worn gun in a holster is no more suspicion of a crime than eating at a table with kids at McDonald's would be suspicious of kidnapping.

Got your back on this one 110%! We can't lay down for the Police as it will only fuel thier harrasment of legal citizens do what they are allowed to do within the law. A few lawsuits would help fix the problem and make the Police get additional training about OC or CC. If money is won then donate it to a good cause. The Cops that break the law can be beat but we have to make sure we do it the right way and win. It shouldnt be that way but thats the reality of it all.

 

[Islander]

Excuse me?!?

1. The police had no reports from the 911 caller to indicate any illegal activity was occurring.
2. When the police arrived, they saw no indication that any illegal activity was occurring.
3. In response to, "Why did they want to be assholes and not present ID" I would counter with why did the assholes wearing the uniforms detain law abiding citizens in the first place?!? And I only use that derogatory word to show that the initiators of the confrontation were not the people who were abiding by the law. They were the people wearing the uniforms who were not abiding by the law. Absent of any suspicion of a crime being committed, the officers had no reason to even approach the subjects, let alone detain them.
4. There is no law in Wisconsin that requires a person to carry ID because they are also carrying a gun.

5. Then we come to this whole idea of the cops "checking them out" which a lot of people don't seem to have a problem with. They say felons can't carry guns and how were the cops to know these guys weren't felons? Let me put it to you this way: Kidnapping is a crime. What if you were sitting at McDonald's eating lunch with one or more children, who just happened to be yours. A lady calls 911 and says, "There is a guy eating in McDonald's with 2 kids and I don't know if that is legal." Multiple cops show up at McDonald's and demand to see your identification and proof the kids are yours or they are going to charge you with kidnapping. AND, on top of that, if the woman says she is afraid for her child's safety because you MIGHT be a kidnapper, they write you a citation for disturbing the peace! There is nothing less legal about wearing a gun while eating at McDonald's then eating at McDonald's with kids.



Nope. The Chief of Police and the alderpersons of Madison have already said that WON'T happen. They won't let law abiding citizens carrying guns run free Madison.

Do you even know the Wisconsin law regarding "Stop and ID?"

968.24
968.24 Temporary questioning without arrest. After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.

So I ask, at what time did the officer have reasonable suspicion that the subjects were committing, about to commit or has committed a crime? A lawfully worn gun in a holster is no more suspicion of a crime than eating at a table with kids at McDonald's would be suspicious of kidnapping.

NOTE: I don't see any statement of commiting a crime if you do not answer the police when they "demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person's conduct". :no:

 

[NavyLCDR]

It happens in Washington too:

Link Removed

Want to hear what REALLY happened? Here's the audio recording of the 8 minute detainment by 4 Sheriff's deputies:

http://tijil.org/PCS_harrassment_28SEP2010.mp3

And yet some on here would say we are the "a$$holes" for not offering blind and dumb compliance...

This started when Tom Brewer was standing in line in Starbucks and 1 Sheriff deputy there on break - NOT in response to a 911 call (not that that matters) started questioning. When Tom asked if he was being detained and the deputy said no, Tom said, "Then this conversation is over with." The Sheriff goes out and calls three of his budies and the recorded interaction started.

Link Removed!

 

[fudfuwsi]

Wisconsin

This is part of the reason that I left WI .... that state can KMA .... you are allowed to open carry there but beware .... the LEO's WILL mess with you no matter what

As was said before when I lived there (born and raised) Wisconsin is actually IL .... basically a county of IL .... want things to change in WI .... they have to change in IL first

 

[handgonnetoter]

I would like to be a fly on the wall in that police department's station. I would like to know if they are that bad at knowing their own laws, or if they were just trying to "bully" those five people into doing something that they did not have to do? What a bunch of BS!:wacko:

 

[bnhcomputing]

Wisconsin Carry, Inc filed a Federal lawsuit against the City of Madison and Madison

A copy of this lawsuit is Link Removed

The City of Madison may not deny individuals the right to carry handguns in nonsensitive places, deprive individuals of the right to carry handguns in an arbitrary and capricious manner, or enforce its laws, customs and practices through its police department or impose regulations on the right to carry handguns that are inconsistent with the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, § 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution.

On Saturday, September 18, 2010, five (5) members of WCI met for dinner at a Culvers Restaurant in Madison, Wisconsin. Each of these individuals was openly carrying a handgun when they arrived at the restaurant, entered the restaurant and ordered and ate their meals. At or about the time that the WCI members finished their meal and left the restaurant, a woman in her car observed them openly carrying handguns and called 911 to report it to the City of Madison Police Department. The 911 caller informed the dispatcher that she didn't know if it was an emergency, the men were doing nothing wrong and appeared totally relaxed, weren't threatening anyone and the restaurant was full of people but they each had sidearms and she didn't know if that was legal.

Upon being informed by the 911 dispatcher that open-carry is legal the woman stated "then there is no problem and its not an emergency". The dispatcher then suggests that if the woman is concerned or disturbed then it becomes a problem and the woman says "no they weren't threatening anybody or acting threatening". When the dispatcher informs the caller they are sending officers she says "well I feel bad then because they weren't doing anything wrong"

Link Removed:

As these WCI members left the restaurant, they were accosted by eight(8) City of Madison police officers, who demanded that they produce identification, and threatened that if they did not do so, they would be arrested. From the time that these WCI members arrived at the restaurant up to and including the time that the police officers confronted them and demanded that they produce identification or face arrest, none of the WCI members violated any law, nor were they involved in any violent, abusive, indecent, profane, boisterous, unreasonably loud or otherwise disorderly conduct, nor did they through their conduct cause or provoke any disturbance.

Wisconsin law does not allow officers to arrest for merely refusing to provide ID. 2 days later, Madison Police admitted the error in arresting and charging our members with obstruction, rescinded those tickets and instead, despite there being no disturbance, and no laws broken, issued disorderly conduct charges to all 5 of our members.

The Madison Police Department also issued a press release which relayed a department procedure which would violate the rights of law-abiding open-carriers who would choose to go legally armed for self-defense in Madison. Link Removed:

By arresting our members without cause and issuing a press release detailing a policy of violating the rights of other law-abiding open-carriers who should choose to carry in Madison, Wisconsin Carry immediately took action to file a lawsuit to prevent this chilling effect on the right to Carry in Madison. We look forward to the precedent this lawsuit will set.

Those who work, live, or travel to Madison are entitled to the same rights as the rest of the state. Wisconsin has a state and federal constitutionally guaranteed right to carry. Open-carry is the only legal way to carry in this state. Wisconsin's attorney general verified the legality of open-carry in a memo to all police chiefs and district attorney's in 2009. The City of Madison may not deny individuals the right to carry handguns in nonsensitive places, deprive individuals of the right to carry handguns in an arbitrary and capricious manner, or enforce its laws, customs and practices through its police department or impose regulations on the right to carry handguns that are inconsistent with the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, § 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution.

The financial support from across the country extended to Wisconsin Carry which allows us the resources to file this lawsuit has been exceptional. On behalf of WCI, our members, and freedom minded Wisconsinites who embrace the right to carry we wish to offer a special thank-you to Buckeye Firearms Foundation.

BFF is a tax-exempt foundation which collected and matched donations from people across the country totaling over $7,500 through their website:

IF the Madison Policy of "Stop, Cuff, Seize, ID, ....well let's see, Disorderly" is allowed to stand, then this type of (no 4th amendment rights) policy could be used to attack "open carry" in EVERY STATE! The time to act is NOW!

Link Removed filed on the 29th is seeking an injunction against the MPD to prevent them from implementing the stated policy.

Wisconsin Carry is a non-profit 100% volunteer organization dedicated to the protection and expansion of the right of law-abiding Wisconsinites to carry in the manner of their choosing; open carry or concealed carry.

 

[Hatchet]

good luck... lets get a win for us...

 

[fudo]

Good luck with your suit. Thanks for your defense of liberty. If the cops can issue a citation for the simple exercise of your constitutional rights, that is saying "exercising your rights is a punishable act."

 

[chroode]

I re-posted it here [http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...n-Carrry-lawsuit-against-Madison-Police-Dept]

To help you raise money.