Winchester 9mm 127 +p+


gkeil961

New member
Just was winding if anyone had any news if this load if legal for civilian use, our is it just for LE. I know there is no federal regulations prohibiting this just was wondering if there was any state our local laws against it. Thanks for the insight
 

Bighouse Doc

New member
To the best of my knowledge, there is NO industry standard as to what pressure "+P+" is loaded to.

If you really need all that extra power, you need to upgrade to a 40 or 45!

-Doc
 
With that said, what would be the absolute "maximum" powder charge a 9mm cartridge can be loaded to given all available current technology?
 
What powder? what bullet? what primer?

One is always foolish to violate published maximums when reloading.

-Doc

I'll re-state my question. What would be the maximum recommended load for a 9mm +P+ cartridge? I'm not looking to "max out" or violate any published maximum, I'm basically looking for the "worse case scenario" that you could get with a factory load, so as to have some idea of if it would be safe (or not) to shoot in a particular firearm.
 

TekGreg

New member
Just was winding if anyone had any news if this load if legal for civilian use, our is it just for LE. I know there is no federal regulations prohibiting this just was wondering if there was any state our local laws against it. Thanks for the insight

gkeil, here's what you have to understand about the +P+ designation. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) sets the safe pressures and designations for the manufacturers to follow. The Winchester 9mm 127 gr +P (NO extra "+" on the end) is guaranteed not to violate 42,000 lbs of force when touched off. However, SAAMI does NOT set any guidelines for a +P+ designation! The extra + is just there to tell you that the ammunition does NOT comply to SAAMI guidelines and was manufactured to whatever the company felt like they could get away with - the manufacturer might have increased pressures by 10% or 30%, there is no way to know without checking with the company. Great guns like Walther, Colt, Glock and others and those with steel frames and slides or those that have been upgraded with things like Match barrels can accept much higher pressures with no problem, but cheaper guns made with inferior materials are sometimes sold with manuals that say to not even use +P ammo! That means that +P+ would be suicidal in such a weapon. The issue has been confused by stretching the use of a SAAMI designation to a non-SAAMI use, but once you understand how important that extra "+" is, you can make an informed decision.

Now, to answer your original question! There is no federal restriction to the round being Law Enforcement Only (LEO). You would have to check with your State Attorney General (AG) and your County Sheriff to find out if there was a more local restriction, but I'm certain that a local gun store could clarify this if you simply ask if they stock the round for civilian purchase. Most ammo manufacturers have given up on LEO-only lines because they find LEOs don't necessarily buy LEO ammunition after testing, believe it or not. As an example, A large mid-western Sheriff's Department chose the newer Winchester RA9124TP 9mm 124 gr. +P ammunition as their duty ammo because it had the same ballistic results as the 127 gr. +P+ but lower recoil which meant quicker follow-up shots.

Hope this helped!
 

TekGreg

New member
With that said, what would be the absolute "maximum" powder charge a 9mm cartridge can be loaded to given all available current technology?


Scarey thought, Glock Fan, but the only absolute maximum is the amount that leaves the gun in firing order after it is touched off. If you have a bolt-action 9mm with a bull barrel and reinforced breech, you might be safe with magnum primers and simply leveling off the powder at the top of the brass!
***NOTE: I AM NOT SUGGESTING ANYONE DO THIS! YOUR GUN WILL BLOW UP AND YOU WILL BE INJURED OR KILLED!***
(Now THE Lawyers are appeased.) All reloaders with modern firearms will usually experiment with their own "+P+" loads, within reason, to determine how much more performance they can wring out of the gun and the round without endangering themselves or the gun. I had a neighbor that used to load ten rounds at .1-.2 grains higher and then he would test fire those rounds and check the target and gun. If the gun showed signs of wear, the recoil increased significantly or accuracy decreased, he generally quit increasing the powder. Then of course he had to try EVERY different type of powder...LOL...

And of course your high-quality, all-steel firearms will generally handle pressures the best, ceramics and polymers are very strong but the manufacturers have tested their weapons for their breaking point so either check your owner's manual, the website, or call the manufacturer directly to find out the EXACT pressure it's guaranteed to withstand before doing too much experimenting - you never want to void that warranty!
 
Scarey thought, Glock Fan, but the only absolute maximum is the amount that leaves the gun in firing order after it is touched off. If you have a bolt-action 9mm with a bull barrel and reinforced breech, you might be safe with magnum primers and simply leveling off the powder at the top of the brass!
***NOTE: I AM NOT SUGGESTING ANYONE DO THIS! YOUR GUN WILL BLOW UP AND YOU WILL BE INJURED OR KILLED!***
(Now THE Lawyers are appeased.) All reloaders with modern firearms will usually experiment with their own "+P+" loads, within reason, to determine how much more performance they can wring out of the gun and the round without endangering themselves or the gun. I had a neighbor that used to load ten rounds at .1-.2 grains higher and then he would test fire those rounds and check the target and gun. If the gun showed signs of wear, the recoil increased significantly or accuracy decreased, he generally quit increasing the powder. Then of course he had to try EVERY different type of powder...LOL...

And of course your high-quality, all-steel firearms will generally handle pressures the best, ceramics and polymers are very strong but the manufacturers have tested their weapons for their breaking point so either check your owner's manual, the website, or call the manufacturer directly to find out the EXACT pressure it's guaranteed to withstand before doing too much experimenting - you never want to void that warranty!


The reason I ask is not to try it out, but rather to determine what would be "safe" for practical use. As an instructor, I get all kinds of questions regarding reloading, ammunition, etc. I like to be well informed before giving out info. I've done my share of experimenting, and have blown up a few pistols in the name of education. :)

Thanks for the info, I will definitely put it to good use.
 

RJ_Whitlock

M&P 9mm
IMO, I would just use +P, hot load, pretty much most modern firearms can handle it because SAMMI made a spec for it, and it leaves one hell of an exit wound, at least the Winchester PDX1's do.
 

gbynum

New member
The reason I ask is not to try it out, but rather to determine what would be "safe" for practical use.
ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-1993, 18 years old, is on the web from SAAMI. It gives the normal, +P, and "PROOF" loads suggested.

What I've ASSUMED, perhaps wrongly, is that the +P+ really just was a more tightly controlled production and used the top 20% of the +P range rather than the full range.

SAAMI gives 52,000 as the minimum "Average" and 55,500 as the maximum "Average" for proof cartridges. The Service Maximum "Average" is 38,500. SAAMI publishes "Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Definitive Proof Loads should be used for one purpose only: The proof testing of pistols and revolvers."

Remember that NORMAL PRODUCTION variations in chambers and barrels will effect the pressure. Experience has proven +P to be OK in MANY modern firearms produced of appropriate materials.

I like R&D. Given a proper test facility and lots of money, I'd enjoy finding the limits. I have neither. A weapon blowing up in my hand would kinda cramp my style <g>. When a manufacturer says, as I've seen, something like +P is OK in moderation but not as a steady diet, in MY opinion, I'd probably limit myself to about 100-200 rounds in its lifetime. If it said that +P was unconditionally OK, I'd expect the lifetime of the weapon to meet their design criteria with every shot of +P. How many? I don't know that either, but in my thick skull, 10,000 would be a reasonable number.

I deal with industrial hydraulics. Our products are typically designed for 50,000,000 cycles. Shock diminishes that life. Shock ... like a controlled burning of powder in a cartridge ...

As an instructor, you should, IN MY OPINION, follow manufacturer recommendations. As a lab manager, you should ensure that experiments are conducted safely, and AWAY FROM THE PUBLIC.

Just my 2 cents worth ... and probably worth less.
 

TekGreg

New member
The reason I ask is not to try it out, but rather to determine what would be "safe" for practical use. As an instructor, I get all kinds of questions regarding reloading, ammunition, etc. I like to be well informed before giving out info. I've done my share of experimenting, and have blown up a few pistols in the name of education. :)

Thanks for the info, I will definitely put it to good use.

Glock Fan,

Sorry, that warning wasn't aimed at you or any of the regular contributors that have common sense. I worry more about someone that finds it in a Google search and thinks it was a fully truthful statement! I know most of us are smart enough to understand entertaining sarcasm from the educational part of the post.

Thanks for asking and passing it on to your students - it's amazing how many people don't know how much +P ammo should go through there gun and how often. Good instructors are constantly learning and teaching more. :D
 

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