Why is it students are left on their own after the basic courses?


Shooters Haven

New member
Am I going to piss some people off? You bet!

Why is it that some of the companies and Instructors feel it is ok to just let their students fend for themselves? How do you just rteach a basic course adn let the students have to make all the decisions after that by themselves?

Many Instructors apparently do not recognize and worse don't seem to care what happens to their students after the basic course is taught. I personally know of 3 companies local to me that don't teach anything further than just the 4 hour Basic course required to attain your NYS Pistol License.

What happens next for the student after the course?
Who helps with the rest of the process?
Does anyone assist with writing letters to the Judges?
What about choosing the first firearm, holster and ammo?
What about assisting with which range to choose?
What about their first shots, not everyone is required to "live fire" qualify?

I could go on and on however I provide all of these services to my students and non-students alike. If I am going to be responsible for their first course don't I have an obligation to make sure their shooting experience is a good one? I feel I do and so do my other Instructors!
 

chilipeppernorm

New member
It sounds like you're almost talking about professional neglect on the part of the instructor. I've not had that experience but I can see where it could happen. There are a number of places that teach basics and far beyond that to a high level of training, Front Sight comes to mind. A student is a consumer and should do some research and due diligence on who and where offers the best training. Local shooting clubs would likely be a good broker for information. I'm not sure I really addressed your concern.
 

wolf_fire

New member
Am I going to piss some people off? You bet!

Why is it that some of the companies and Instructors feel it is ok to just let their students fend for themselves? How do you just rteach a basic course adn let the students have to make all the decisions after that by themselves?

Many Instructors apparently do not recognize and worse don't seem to care what happens to their students after the basic course is taught. I personally know of 3 companies local to me that don't teach anything further than just the 4 hour Basic course required to attain your NYS Pistol License.

What happens next for the student after the course?
Who helps with the rest of the process?
Does anyone assist with writing letters to the Judges?
What about choosing the first firearm, holster and ammo?
What about assisting with which range to choose?
What about their first shots, not everyone is required to "live fire" qualify?

I could go on and on however I provide all of these services to my students and non-students alike. If I am going to be responsible for their first course don't I have an obligation to make sure their shooting experience is a good one? I feel I do and so do my other Instructors!

And what about all those people that bought a power drill? No one was there to teach them to use it effectively, or which one to buy.

What about a chain saw? Oh the inhumanity.

What about the training I never got when I bought a welder? Miller Electric should have a good talking to.

Seriously?

A lot of instructors get into the business because their state imposed some unconstitutional infringement on its citizenry. So the instructor offers the state's minimum. It's not the instructor's responsibility to hold the student's hand and lead them through their life with firearms.

I think its absolutely wonderful that you are the type of instructor that follows up afterward and offers these many services. For the person who has no one else to show them the right way or is weak in researching themselves, or just wants more training, you are the type of person those would go to.

But to sit here and admonish someone who is just instructing for the state level permission slip hoop to jump through... sorry, I can't jump on your bandwagon.
 

Bttbbob

New member
Folks will think nothing of spending $1000.00 or more for a gun, but try to get them to spend an extra $300.00 a day learning to shoot it or defend themselves with it. I teach Florida CCW due to our business being commercial. I only get a 5% retention to take more advanced classes. It's a shame. I get almost 90% retention on my Instructor courses though.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
Folks will think nothing of spending $1000.00 or more for a gun, but try to get them to spend an extra $300.00 a day learning to shoot it or defend themselves with it. I teach Florida CCW due to our business being commercial. I only get a 5% retention to take more advanced classes. It's a shame. I get almost 90% retention on my Instructor courses though.
Folks in this country got along without any classes of any kind for a couple of hundred years yet they managed to learn how to carry, how to shoot, when... and when not... to shoot... and there wasn't a structured teaching system there to hold their hands either.

Those instructors who want to offer further instruction whether through a belief in providing the very best service to their students or even if just to make more money are free to do so... and those students who want further instruction/can afford it will seek it from those instructors. But those who don't and can't should not be expected to be.. expected to seek it.

And I don't think that very many first time CCW class attendees show up with a $1000 gun. And to many people $300 a day for extended instruction/training is so far out of the realm of possibility that it isn't even given a first thought much less a second thought.

Not everyone has a good job making lots of money. For some folks just getting a gun and paying for the permit puts a terrible strain on their finances. Can you imagine a young mother of 3 with a stalker ex husband who isn't paying child support trying to decide whether to spend more money on training... or buying her kids winter coats? Look around at our economy... there are lots of folks who need the protection that carrying a gun affords .. but because they are working at Burger King or some other low paying job (at the moment anyway) and are having a terrible time making ends meet they just don't have the bucks to get past the minimum needed so they can at least protect themselves and their loved ones.

Sometimes the spirit is willing but the bank account is weak.
 

BC1

,
Am I going to piss some people off? You bet!

Why is it that some of the companies and Instructors feel it is ok to just let their students fend for themselves? How do you just rteach a basic course adn let the students have to make all the decisions after that by themselves?

Many Instructors apparently do not recognize and worse don't seem to care what happens to their students after the basic course is taught. I personally know of 3 companies local to me that don't teach anything further than just the 4 hour Basic course required to attain your NYS Pistol License.

What happens next for the student after the course?
Who helps with the rest of the process?
Does anyone assist with writing letters to the Judges?
What about choosing the first firearm, holster and ammo?
What about assisting with which range to choose?
What about their first shots, not everyone is required to "live fire" qualify?

I could go on and on however I provide all of these services to my students and non-students alike. If I am going to be responsible for their first course don't I have an obligation to make sure their shooting experience is a good one? I feel I do and so do my other Instructors!
I do most of these things for my students. I provide an overview of the license process, a review of the law and FL non-resident application during the basic NRA course. My students are encouraged to contact me later they obtain their license where I bring them to my range and review shooting fundamentals. We don't leave until the student is shooting safely and properly. We provide sample letters for cross registration and various permit amendments. Some students also like a formal NRA qualifier whereby they are awarded an official certificate based on their performance in a course of fire.
.
If you're anywhere near orange County and want some help contact me. I'm willing to review the fundamentals using live fire at my range. Free of charge of course.
 

Bluestar99

New member
When my wife and I took a beginner gun class we chose a company that offered a wide variety of services. Their classes were 2 days. Day one was a 5 hour classroom lesson, taught by 2 former LEO's with one also being a lawyer. Day 2 was the range, both handgun and shotgun. We chose them because of the range, but were impressed with their classroom lesson as well. I get an email 3-4 times a week from them about upcoming events they have. Most every weekend there is something going on. For those who want continuing education this is the kind of place to go. It's like everything else, you get out of it what you put into it. I'm sure some that took the class with us never bother to go practice shooting. Others shoot every week. Each state has a minimum required to allow you a have a firearm. They also have minimum liability coverage for car insurance. Each person has the right to decide what level of protection they want and what kind of risk they are willing to take. That's why there are choices. When I get ready to get a CCW I will finish my classes with these people. One, because they do a good job, and my previous class counts toward my permit.
 

telpinaro

New member
Folks will think nothing of spending $1000.00 or more for a gun, but try to get them to spend an extra $300.00 a day learning to shoot it or defend themselves with it. I teach Florida CCW due to our business being commercial. I only get a 5% retention to take more advanced classes. It's a shame. I get almost 90% retention on my Instructor courses though.

If they just spent $1000 on a gun, I bet they don't have an extra $300 (OUCH! Max I've considered is $200/day and that was Kathy Jackson!) to spend. I bought my gun, took a CC class, got a private lesson (not as expensive as it sounds!), and was on an extremely strict budget for several months. When I'd saved up again, I... missed a class so I could fix my heat. Hoping to go through a few more this summer if funds allow. Heck, I know someone who had to sell her gun because she couldn't pay her kid's doctor bill! She definitely couldn't get more training.

Offering more is great, but be careful about judging people who don't do more. I'd also bet those instructors who offer the bare minimum are offering it to people like that. There's all kinds of niches in that industry.

It's great to care that much about your students, but like Bikenut said... bank account doesn't always allow it. Maybe offer as much a discount as you can if they take the next class within six months? It's hard to resist a good discount... (You have to make a living too, obviously, but if you hook 'em with how valuable, and fun, the extra training can be, they'll come back even if it takes a year or two.) Where I go for training offers several package deals that'll save their students a bundle.
 

MamaLiberty

New member
Each person is responsible for themselves and for the consequences of how they choose to use their tools. Guns are certainly no exception.

I offer four different classes, and a free practice clinic at the range once a week. Since the end of the required concealed carry "permit" here, my classes are small and infrequent. Very few students have ever taken the time or trouble to attend the weekly shooting clinic. It is the gun owner's responsibility to get whatever training they think they need.

I am responsible for the accuracy of the NRA instructional material I provide during the class, whichever one the student takes. I am not responsible for how well they learn it, how they use it, or their subsequent activities. I avoid, as much as possible, giving information or instruction on "the law" because that is also the responsibility of the student. They need to research it and learn it from the "official" sources. I don't want anyone to come back and say they went to jail or had a problem because what I taught was different than what they actually encountered. Since I don't KNOW what they might do or encounter, it would be seriously stupid for me to give them any such excuse to blame me.
 

BluesStringer

Les Brers
Each state has a minimum required to allow you a have a firearm.

Utter nonsense. The overwhelming majority of states have no laws concerning ownership beyond compliance with federal restrictions on age, criminal history, mental illness, etc. etc.

The infringements have been en force for so long now in a handful of states that many don't even know there is freedom to be had elsewhere. It's truly sad.

And because of that, I wonder how many people in (somewhat) freer states realize that the OP isn't talking about following-up with students after a CCW permit class, but after a mandated class just to be, like the post I'm replying to, allowed to own a weapon? The class(es?) for getting permission to carry a weapon comes afterwards.

Now, I know that there are many around here who believe, like the N R A and SCOTUS, that there are "reasonable" restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms implicit within the words, "shall not be infringed," but does anyone honestly believe that having to complete a class and then ask permission to even own a weapon falls within those "reasonable" restrictions? And if not, what the Hell are you still doing living in such tyrannical states?

Humans are a very strange species. They can see the words "shall not be infringed" and still think their rights are being served and/or protected by...well...infringing on their rights! WAKE UP!!!!!

Blues
 

Bluestar99

New member
BluesStringer said:
Utter nonsense. The overwhelming majority of states have no laws concerning ownership beyond compliance with federal restrictions on age, criminal history, mental illness, etc. etc.



I said...Each state has a minimum required to allow you a have a firearm.

Tell me those are not minimum requirements. Some states like mine have many more then that.
 

BluesStringer

Les Brers
BluesStringer said:
When my wife and I took a beginner gun class we chose a company that offered a wide variety of services. Their classes were 2 days. Day one was a 5 hour classroom lesson, taught by 2 former LEO's with one also being a lawyer. Day 2 was the range, both handgun and shotgun. We chose them because of the range, but were impressed with their classroom lesson as well. I get an email 3-4 times a week from them about upcoming events they have. Most every weekend there is something going on. For those who want continuing education this is the kind of place to go. It's like everything else, you get out of it what you put into it. I'm sure some that took the class with us never bother to go practice shooting. Others shoot every week. Each state has a minimum required to allow you a have a firearm. They also have minimum liability coverage for car insurance. Each person has the right to decide what level of protection they want and what kind of risk they are willing to take. That's why there are choices. When I get ready to get a CCW I will finish my classes with these people. One, because they do a good job, and my previous class counts toward my permit.

Utter nonsense. The overwhelming majority of states have no laws concerning ownership beyond compliance with federal restrictions on age, criminal history, mental illness, etc. etc.

I said...Each state has a minimum required to allow you a have a firearm.

Tell me those are not minimum requirements.

The ones I mentioned are not state requirements at all, minimum or otherwise, and besides, you were only talking about minimum training and/or classroom requirements, not restrictions on felons and the mentally ill etc. owning or being in possession of firearms. Most, maybe all, states do have laws concerning felons, the mentally ill etc, but are you now saying that all but one sentence, the one I replied to, was about training and classroom requirements, and that one sentence was referring to federal restrictions? The fact is there are zero restrictions to purchase a weapon that exceed federal restrictions in most states, and making you aware of that fact was in direct reply to you asserting that each state has said minimum requirements.

And now I'm really going to blow your mind. Not only are there states where you don't have to acquire training and/or classroom time to purchase a weapon, but there are actually states where you don't have to acquire training or classroom time or ask permission to carry a weapon at all. Can you just imagine??? There are actually millions of people living in this country who exercise their rights right out in the open and never ask anyone for permission!!! I know, there must be blood flowing like rivers in the streets, huh? Well, not really. States with the least-restrictive gun laws routinely have the lowest crime statistics to go along with those lax gun laws. Our Framers knew exactly what they were doing when they said, "...shall not be infringed."

Some states like mine have many more then that.

Just so we're clear, you are agreeing with me that only some states have more than the minimum restrictions to purchase a weapon than the .fedgov mandates, right? I mean as opposed to each state having its own minimum requirements over and above that of the .fedgov?

Is it just me, or are you a bit more confused about what you were trying to say than I was?

Blues
 

BluesStringer

Les Brers
People, training is a great thing. I highly recommend that everyone get as much as they can afford. I wouldn't even criticize anyone for getting more than they can afford, by putting it on a credit card or what have you. I also commend the OP for offering additional help to his students over and above what they paid for. That's simply awesome!!!

But make no mistake; trainers such as the OP would be few and far between if various state governments didn't create a paid position for them. "Training" would mean something very different if government kept its nose out of our personal decisions. "Training" would be like what I got at Link Removed, or like Front Sight, or one of hundreds of other true training facilities, rather than just a minimum amount of knowledge or hand/eye coordination that an instructor qualified to teach a minimum, basic course can teach a new student. Obviously, this would exclude the OP and others like him, but the point is, when the state mandates a bare minimum of knowledge to exercise a right, sometimes at an expense that is cost-prohibitive to begin with, we're getting mostly instructors and students who train to the minimum level necessary to earn their keep/comply with permission-slip laws to exercise a God-given right.

It really is discouraging to see so many people living under such repressive laws for so long that they don't even know that their rights are being destroyed by such laws. You should never have to ask your government for permission to own one of only two items mentioned in the Bill of Rights as a God-given right to own! And when you find yourself in a position where your state defies that contract with The People, you should consistently fight against it at the very least, if not defy it and make your state defend their tyranny in court as an expression of being free men and women, if you consider yourselves as such. If you're happy living under the laws your government imposes upon you in direct violation of the supreme law that gives it its authority to even exist, then be my guest and live as a slave. May your chains rest lightly upon you, and may the morsels your government gives you of freedom satisfy you until your chains are broken by the bounds of this Earth.

As for me, I will never ever allow myself to be so complacent, so deluded, so beat down by criminal usurpers of the Constitution, that I consider myself free when I am clearly not. And I will never understand, or agree with, those who do.

Blues
 

Firefighterchen

OC for Tactical Advantage
Instructors should have never been in a place to infringe on the Right to bear arms to begin with, so everything after that fact doesn't matter.

Once they were the infringement, at what point do you want that infringement to stop? Never? They should just take care of everyone's Right to bear arms forever?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
 

Shooters Haven

New member
When we choose to become Instructors, aren't we supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard? I can agree most don't! Here is my area, NY, we are restircted by the laws here. Is it not our obligation to inform, instruct, educate and advise people? Sometime you have to educate your market! Remember that at least here in NY you are looked at like you are a criminal for having a firearm and even our laws state this.

Take the time to inform people at every chance you get adn this brings the people to you. Offer more then just the basic 4 hour course and a few minutes of your time. You don't like what you do get out! Let someone that is good fir the sport and willing to go the extra mile for their student and others in general do what they feel is important. You instructors are the first people these "newbee's" meet and are the first experience they get. Be all you can be!
 

cds0699

New member
Honestly for me, my instructor taught a basic course and a brief live fire. I only wanted that, i personally only did that because the course was a requirement for my concealed carry permit. I have grown up around guns all my life, served in the military... And even worked on a range in the Marine corps. So i have probably have at least the same ammount of trigger time as my instructor.... Why would someone who is experienced want to pay for more than the minimum the law requires?

Now i do see an advantage to your training for someone brand new to guns.... It sounds to me like offering the basics package, then offering a full package would be ideal.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk
 

G26

New member
My wife and I train with an instructor in Ventura county who offers 2 hours of supervised practice every month for $40.00. He also offers supervised night practice, supervised AR practice, etc. Really outstanding training. He also offers 6 different handgun classes, force on force scenario training, and other programs.
 

vernsimpson

New member
Absolutely incorrect. I've been teaching the penal law for a long time and there is no such law.

You are correct that there is no written law that says that but in Chicago the Police Chief basically said that everyone who carried in Chicago would be treated like they were a BG! I can not say what NY thinks about legal CC'ers but the commie mayor seems to be very much against everything that we hold dear.
 

Bttbbob

New member
Honestly for me, my instructor taught a basic course and a brief live fire. I only wanted that, i personally only did that because the course was a requirement for my concealed carry permit. I have grown up around guns all my life, served in the military... And even worked on a range in the Marine corps. So i have probably have at least the same ammount of trigger time as my instructor.... Why would someone who is experienced want to pay for more than the minimum the law requires?

Now i do see an advantage to your training for someone brand new to guns.... It sounds to me like offering the basics package, then offering a full package would be ideal.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk

Because training is a lifelong affair. It should be done as long as you carry a gun. Shooting and Defensive tactics are a deteriorating skill. Otherwise the Army, Marine Corps, Air Force and Navy could just do one year of training and say ummmmmmOK I know it all now, I don't need to do this anymore.
 

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