Which is better? Protect yourself/family or remove criminal from face of earth?


Hoganbeg

Member
Rare and unique occurrence; perhaps, but I do remember hearing of this: Open Carry Man Robbed of His Gun-Watch Video Here

Admittedly, it's hard to believe this guy is representative of OCers, nevertheless, there it is.

"There's a complete fools list? I didn't know...."

Circles within circles, wheels within wheels, & one never knows there is a higher (or in this case, lower) level until invited.
 

jg1967

New member
Of course I don't want to execute anybody! If I ever have to fire a shot in anger I sincerely hope it will be only to stop an imminent threat and no more. Anything else is beyond the range of what most States allow for self defense. We carry guns, we carry responsibility - to act as calm and rational as possible - we will be held to higher standards on this in court.
 

TekGreg

New member
There are a lot of issues to touch on with this and I have read all of the comments on all the pages and I decided to just start this post from the begginning. There are legal issues and practical issues clashing here and it is clear that not everyone has come to terms with their personal beliefs as they are reconciled by their state laws.

First off, any firearm is a DEADLY weapon. In almost every set of state laws I've read, it is ILLEGAL, not just unpleasant, to use a firearm to threaten or wound in a way intended to be non-lethal. In other words, you cannot pull your gun with the intent to "shoo the bad guy away" or even "shoot the bad guy in the leg" because you don't want to kill them. As a matter of fact, if you sit on the witness stand and make this claim, you can be charged with violations of the criminal code for improper use of a firearm! I make a point of saying this fact first because you must understand that a gun is a tool like an axe or a hammer or a screwdriver, but this tool is intended to kill. If the BG is not committing an act for which his life cannot be taken, a gun cannot be employed as a method of defense. If this is your intent or you can not reconcile taking a human life, then choose a different tool other than a gun to defend yourself that you will use properly.

One of the other components is the BG himself. Somehow, there has become a social responsibility for the victim (Us, the CCW carrier, family protector) to somehow determine the socio-eco-criminal condition of the BG in the moment that he decides to overcome his inherent knowledge of right and wrong and target us. We are somehow supposed to take into account if he is a big 17-year-old who has good grades and is carjacking us because he needs to feed his family or he's a 29-year-old career parolee who is a blight on society and has been since he was 14. But since the government social workers with their multitude of college degrees and unlimited federal money haven't been able to figure it out the entire time he's been growing up, how are we supposed to do it in less than half of a second with a gun pointed at our head? It is our job to evaluate the CRIME, not the criminal, and make the legal determination what LEVEL of force to apply to defend ourself. Any attempt to analyze the BG in the middle of a criminal act will be scorned by the judge and laughed at by the jury. This is why it is absolutely necessary that you understand Escalation of Force AND CAN DESCRIBE IT in a court of law if necessary, and also how it applies to your state law.

One of the phrases I've always loved is, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." As applied to this discussion, it means when all you have is a gun, you want to answer every threat with a bullet. This may seem harsh, but if you have no defensive options or cannot escalate your force except from empty hand to gun, then you did not leave your home (in the eyes of the law and the jury) with any other way to handle a situation. I have trained in martial arts, I carry a cane or walking stick, I almost always have mace on or near me, a small tactical flashlight can fit into a back pocket with a crenallated crown, a small collapsible baton, where legal or with permit, can ride in a belt holster on your weak side, and a tazer can be carried in purse, holster or car for six (6) levels of escalation or de-escalation of force, all of them NON-lethal but one! With any or all of these, it is much easier to convince a District Attorney, Attorney General or jury that you were justified in pulling your gun when you did. You had options, you even tried Mace, or you hit him twice with the baton and he kept coming and then pulled a knife. You only pulled the gun when HE (the BG) escalated it to deadly. This is like the roofer or electrician that goes to work with a tool belt - you'd never see one of them go up on a building with just a hammer - he knows he's going to need more tools than just one to hit nails. He knows if he uses a hammer for every problem, he's going to make bigger problems than he already has...take a lesson.

Finally, I never have believed in the deterrence value of a visible firearm. A locksmith once told me that, "Locks keep honest people out - a dishonest person will always get by them." I believe the same is true with a visible gun - a BG looking for easy targets will leave you alone, but a banger or a group of parolees will make a game to set you up and they will put you on the ground, take the gun off of you and then execute you with your own gun or hold you down and beat and bleed you slowly for fun, depending on sadistic leanings of their leader. There is a reason prisons keep all of the guards with weapons in the tower and on the fence (NOWHERE near a prisoner) and guards in with the prisoners are not allowed ANY weapon. A large enough unarmed group (Flash Mob?) can rush, pin, crush, kill and be gone before anyone knows what happened. CC of my gun has nothing to do with an "Executioner Fetish," but a sincere desire to keep what is supposed to be secret, secret. I want to decide when, where, and IF, the gun is drawn, not the BG.
 

retiredman

New member
Imenent danger! does anyone understand that?

Don't draw your firearm unless you are willing to kill another person!

Oklahoma laws make it simple! Out of sight Out of mind.

Self Protection!

If you see a pile of dog poop in your yard don't step in it if you don't want the smell on you

It is far easier to avoid trouble then to explain what happened.

Carrying a firearm is a responsibility not a game.
 

NavyLCDR

New member
Finally, I never have believed in the deterrence value of a visible firearm. A locksmith once told me that, "Locks keep honest people out - a dishonest person will always get by them." I believe the same is true with a visible gun - a BG looking for easy targets will leave you alone, but a banger or a group of parolees will make a game to set you up and they will put you on the ground, take the gun off of you and then execute you with your own gun or hold you down and beat and bleed you slowly for fun, depending on sadistic leanings of their leader. There is a reason prisons keep all of the guards with weapons in the tower and on the fence (NOWHERE near a prisoner) and guards in with the prisoners are not allowed ANY weapon. A large enough unarmed group (Flash Mob?) can rush, pin, crush, kill and be gone before anyone knows what happened. CC of my gun has nothing to do with an "Executioner Fetish," but a sincere desire to keep what is supposed to be secret, secret. I want to decide when, where, and IF, the gun is drawn, not the BG.

Then you will be able to provide real life examples where your theory has been proven true?

 

Tucker's Mom

New member
To kill another human being just because you know he is a BG is not my reason for carrying my gun. I go out with my family and they know I carry, like they do. But on many occasions, I also go out with my friend who is opposed to me carrying. She doesn't know that I do. I know my family is safe with me around just as i feel the same way when they are around me, but my friend and her son who has downs syndrome acts tough but wouldn't be able to defend themselves and us should SHTF in one our outings, so I take it upon myself (without her knowledge) for me to be armed so that I can feel safe to be with them.
 

Firefighterchen

OC for Tactical Advantage
Hoganbeg:228046 said:
Rare and unique occurrence; perhaps, but I do remember hearing of this: Open Carry Man Robbed of His Gun-Watch Video Here

Admittedly, it's hard to believe this guy is representative of OCers, nevertheless, there it is.

"There's a complete fools list? I didn't know...."

Circles within circles, wheels within wheels, & one never knows there is a higher (or in this case, lower) level until invited.

Its funny that even this article can't say he was targeted for his gun for sure, but that's what he believes. They won't know until they catch the bad guy...whereas the link navy posted the bad guys admitted to waiting because of the open carriers.
 

Iam2Taz

New member
WOW. I thought this was a simple question, that those of us who carried, were somehow above the morons and slime. Guess I was wrong. (Just joking!)

I carry to protect my family, myself and then, maybe, you. (I will use a cell phone for you.) I want to stop the bad guy. PERIOD. Just make them stop, nothing more, nothing less. If they expire during their onslaught, sorry. I am not on a hunting excursion. Those who hunt trouble, usually find it.

Should I do this OC or CC. It doesn't really matter. I have seen OC done very well. And I would say that most "professional" open carriers are going to be mistaken for police officers. These guys/gals usually have very nice leather holsters and nice shooting irons. I would allow them a deterrent factor. As opposed to the idiot who was OCing in Kohls the other day with his Glock falling on the floor because he had it clipped on his pant pocket. Of course there are many shades in between. I have seen CC done well and poorly too, although not nearly as often as open carry.
 

mgttrmn

New member
As for as open or concealed, their will always be people hardcore for one or the other. In all reality, it is what your state allows and what you feel comfortably with. Plain and simple. The important part is that you are carrying.
 

bob16066

New member
Open carriers are seeking Validation from Society or Law Enforcement or both.

This is clear to me even if it's not clear to anyone else.
 

Cuban8

New member
what if?

Playing devil's advocate...let's say a criminal enters your home while you're there and then backs away and leaves when he sees your gun. Now he knows you have it and what to expect. If that criminal is bold enough and dangerous enough to have entered your home in the first place, he may decide to return, but armed the next time, now that he knows what to expect. Knowing that possibility exists, it's a hard choice in the first encounter. Shoot or don't shoot? Self defense or overkill? It's all in how you view it...no easy choice here.
 

Cuban8

New member
In-home confrontation

For any case where you have an intruder in your home, I suggest reading chapter 7 of Massad Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme," with particular attention to that portion of the chapter that starts at the bottom of page 58. I think he makes his case quite well. BTW, you can get it at www.ayoob.com. I got mine within a day or two of ordering.
 

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