When protecting yourself/home.......

[hogwylde]

I'm sure the answer is probably going to vary from state to state, court to court, and jury to jury but thought I would ask anyway and it's regarding "stopping the threat".

A single, EVEN ERRANT, shot to the leg may be more than enough to stop the threat without necessarily killing the BG. So is it possible that if you were to lawfully shoot your gun and fired 5,6,or 7 shots killing the intruder that charges could be filed against you and perhaps even convicted for "overkill" (pun intended) if it was determined the first shot, that hit his leg, was the shot that put him down............stopping the threat?

Mind you, I am NOT suggesting aiming for a leg, etc because I wouldn't either. I'm simply asking about the possible legal ramifications of the shooting if the coroner (or whoever) determines that the shot to the leg was the first hit and the shot that put him down but in your fear, you shot and emptied your magazine before he was literally down.

Or does Standing Your Ground or Protecting Your Castle NOT put a limit on shots fired so long as you fired lawfully?

 

[eagleeyes]

someone could be shot in the leg and still continue their attacking... just depends if the shot in the leg stopped him from further attack or not would be my guess.....sometimes folks high on drugs can take several shots before going down......

 

[UATKP]

A single, EVEN ERRANT, shot to the leg may be more than enough to stop the threat without necessarily killing the BG. So is it possible that if you were to lawfully shoot your gun and fired 5,6,or 7 shots killing the intruder that charges could be filed against you and perhaps even convicted for "overkill" (pun intended) if it was determined the first shot, that hit his leg, was the shot that put him down............stopping the threat?

Mind you, I am NOT suggesting aiming for a leg, etc because I wouldn't either. I'm simply asking about the possible legal ramifications of the shooting if the coroner (or whoever) determines that the shot to the leg was the first hit and the shot that put him down but in your fear, you shot and emptied your magazine before he was literally down.

Or does Standing Your Ground or Protecting Your Castle NOT put a limit on shots fired so long as you fired lawfully?

The coroner or eye witnesses maybe?
I don't know. But the number of rounds used is dependent upon when he stops advancing. Even with my tremor, I can get 7 rounds on target within 5 seconds, so if he takes that long to go down or stop advancing, he may get 'em all.
If I should be so scared that I don't quit firing until my 7-round mag is empty, I would think that would be covered under the "in fear of my life" clause. To be honest with you, I don't ever want to find out.

 

[Deserteagle]

If you are authorized to use DEADLY force under your state's law, then you are authorized to use as much force as necessary to stop the bad guy. The deadly force law doesnt say anything about putting them down nicely or limiting how many bullets you put into them.

There is no difference in the laws about having to use 1 bullet or 30 bullets to save your life as long as you are allowed to be using deadly force.

Not to be rude, but do you honestly think there is a hidden part in the law that says after so many bullets you are no longer allowed to continue firing to save your life? I can assure you there is not such thing in Colorado's laws at least.

 

[hogwylde]

If I should be so scared that I don't quit firing until my 7-round mag is empty, I would think that would be covered under the "in fear of my life" clause. To be honest with you, I don't ever want to find out.

I agree with everything you are saying here.

Would I shoot an intruder without blinking an eye in order to protect me or my family? I would sure like to think so but law-strapped Massachusetts makes you think of these things. Nothing worse than having YOUR life in the hands of OTHERS (BG or Judicial system)

 

[hogwylde]

Not to be rude, but do you honestly think there is a hidden part in the law that says after so many bullets you are no longer allowed to continue firing to save your life?

In no way do I think you are being rude and I would empty my magazine, reload it, and continue shooting if the time allowed! But having lived in this god forsaken state of Massachusetts for ~25 years.....I wouldn't put it passed the state that there's some buried law somewhere regarding this.

 

[mappow]

Errr, shoot to STOP the threat. If you feel that this bloodly mass crawling towards you after gaining weight of 20 rounds of lead and you still feel mortally threatened then pump a few more into the BG. The threat needs to be removed from your reality to justify your abstaining from firing your firearm. NOW with that said, hopefully your reality is of the sane level verses and intoxicated one. Hopefully 2 rounds of .45 ACP JHP will preclude me from waisting ammo. BUT additional rounds if required to STOP THE THREAT.

 

[BC1]

The general schooling on this is to shoot at upper COM or exposed COM until the threat is stopped. Not one shot more. Then move away to cover and call 911. Do not approach the downed attacker, he may still be dangerous. In PP courses we generally use an 8" paper plate to simulate COM. Any shot in the plate is a hit. Think of that plate as the center of the chest. Statistically, a single shot rarely kills and often does not stop the attacker, especially one who's tweeked-out or with lower caliber rounds. So one should be prepared for the follow-up shot. Some people state they will double tap or shoot a controlled pair. Not sure how that works out... depends on the results of an investigation (witness statements, condition of perp, location of hits, etc.). Many factors go into it. Often the DA will send the case to a grand jury. At a minimum be postured to shoot a controlled pair.

 

[hogwylde]

The general schooling on this is to shoot at upper COM or exposed COM until the threat is stopped. Not one shot more. Then move away to cover and call 911. Do not approach the downed attacker, he may still be dangerous. In PP courses we generally use an 8" paper plate to simulate COM. Any shot in the plate is a hit. Think of that plate as the center of the chest. Statistically, a single shot rarely kills and often does not stop the attacker, especially one who's tweeked-out or with lower caliber rounds. So one should be prepared for the follow-up shot. Some people state they will double tap or shoot a controlled pair. Not sure how that works out... depends on the results of an investigation (witness statements, condition of perp, location of hits, etc.). Many factors go into it. Often the DA will send the case to a grand jury. At a minimum be postured to shoot a controlled pair.

Everything you said is exactly the point of my post and the part I am questioning is "The general schooling on this is to shoot at upper COM or exposed COM until the threat is stopped. Not one shot more."

I don't see how, in the fear of it all, can someone have such control as to know how many shots one fires. IMO, if you are in such fear, 1 shot is no different than 1, 3, 30, 40 or 50 and am wondering what the repercussions can be.

 

[TlWheatley]

As long as you feel threatened keep shooting!

 

[BC1]

Everything you said is exactly the point of my post and the part I am questioning is "The general schooling on this is to shoot at upper COM or exposed COM until the threat is stopped. Not one shot more." I don't see how, in the fear of it all, can someone have such control as to know how many shots one fires. IMO, if you are in such fear, 1 shot is no different than 1, 3, 30, 40 or 50 and am wondering what the repercussions can be.

Training is key. Take a good PP course (even NRA PPITH for starters) and learn the in-home drills. You can find local courses at the NRA education website. Work those drills. They should include rounding corners, leaning out, clearing a room, shooting from the kneeling position and while retreating. By working the drills at the range you ingraine the technique into your brain so it doesn't require thought, but becomes a natural reaction. But understand, nothing can simulate the physical and psychological reactions to a violent encounter. Physically you may have tunnel-vision and not be aware of a second threat (peripheral). You'll learn to check your 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00 positions, breaking tunnel-vision. Time dialation causes a slowing of the action. Auditory exclusion keeps you from hearing extraneous sounds. Your hands and possibly your entire body may shake as the body dumps epinephrine, norepinephrine and adrenaline into the bloodstream. Some people experience a delay in their reaction... at first they can't believe this is happening. Their reaction may be to freeze, retreat, surrender or fight. These reactions we can't reproduce in training. Just start with a good course and work the drills until they are a natural response. Remember to stay away from the goblin after he's down, you shot him for a reason. Do not render first aid. When you call 911 say nothing more than you've shot an intuder in your home and request police and ambulance. DO NOT converse or volunteer any information... you're being recorded. When the police arrive tell them you shot an intruder who presented a threat and nothing more. Ask that they give you time to consult an attorney, after which you'll be happy to come in and give a full statement. RESIST the temptation to elaborate or provide details. This is very important. There are a variety of post-shooting psychological reactions that may cause you to say something against your penal interest. One of these is that some people initially feel elation for having survived a deadly encounter. You're pumped-up so shut-up. Consult an attorney within 24 hours.

 

[GB-Boater]

You practice your shots. Do dbl tap COM, small pause then 1 to cranial.
Get a plan, a person coming at you will get to you in 2 sec from 25 ft.

 

[BC1]

Get a plan, a person coming at you will get to you in 2 sec from 25 ft.

YES! I always ask my students "do you have a good plan for bad people?" Violent encounters happen extremely fast, are at close range and are usually over very quickly. There is almost no react time thus the need for a plan and training. Plus, nothing beats solid doors, a safe room, alarms, cameras and a good dog.

 

[hogwylde]

Training is key. Take a good PP course (even NRA PPITH for starters) and learn the in-home drills. You can find local courses at the NRA education website. Work those drills. They should include rounding corners, leaning out, clearing a room, shooting from the kneeling position and while retreating. By working the drills at the range you ingraine the technique into your brain so it doesn't require thought, but becomes a natural reaction. But understand, nothing can simulate the physical and psychological reactions to a violent encounter. Physically you may have tunnel-vision and not be aware of a second threat (peripheral). You'll learn to check your 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00 positions, breaking tunnel-vision. Time dialation causes a slowing of the action. Auditory exclusion keeps you from hearing extraneous sounds. Your hands and possibly your entire body may shake as the body dumps epinephrine, norepinephrine and adrenaline into the bloodstream. Some people experience a delay in their reaction... at first they can't believe this is happening. Their reaction may be to freeze, retreat, surrender or fight. These reactions we can't reproduce in training. Just start with a good course and work the drills until they are a natural response. Remember to stay away from the goblin after he's down, you shot him for a reason. Do not render first aid. When you call 911 say nothing more than you've shot an intuder in your home and request police and ambulance. DO NOT converse or volunteer any information... you're being recorded. When the police arrive tell them you shot an intruder who presented a threat and nothing more. Ask that they give you time to consult an attorney, after which you'll be happy to come in and give a full statement. RESIST the temptation to elaborate or provide details. This is very important. There are a variety of post-shooting psychological reactions that may cause you to say something against your penal interest. One of these is that some people initially feel elation for having survived a deadly encounter. You're pumped-up so shut-up. Consult an attorney within 24 hours.

I really enjoyed reading your post and thank you for taking the time to post it. Can you advise me as to how or where to inquire into such training? I am near Springfield, MA and the only place I knew of that offered training like that was S&W and I hear they have curtailed it (and the range as a whole) a couple months ago.

 

[kelcarry]

I'm sure the answer is probably going to vary from state to state, court to court, and jury to jury but thought I would ask anyway and it's regarding "stopping the threat".

A single, EVEN ERRANT, shot to the leg may be more than enough to stop the threat without necessarily killing the BG. So is it possible that if you were to lawfully shoot your gun and fired 5,6,or 7 shots killing the intruder that charges could be filed against you and perhaps even convicted for "overkill" (pun intended) if it was determined the first shot, that hit his leg, was the shot that put him down............stopping the threat?

Mind you, I am NOT suggesting aiming for a leg, etc because I wouldn't either. I'm simply asking about the possible legal ramifications of the shooting if the coroner (or whoever) determines that the shot to the leg was the first hit and the shot that put him down but in your fear, you shot and emptied your magazine before he was literally down.

Or does Standing Your Ground or Protecting Your Castle NOT put a limit on shots fired so long as you fired lawfully?

I guess you have numbers on your bullets so that everyone will know if the bullet to the leg was the first one. Seriously though, you, if alone, are the only one who would know when the "imminent threat" has ended and no one else. If that is 5 or 10 shots under the stress that you found yourself, so be it. If you are going to start thinking like this, you probably should not be in possession of a firearm--your thought process is in the wrong place and it can get you killed whether this is in your home or anywhere.

 

[hogwylde]

If you are going to start thinking like this, you probably should not be in possession of a firearm--your thought process is in the wrong place and it can get you killed whether this is in your home or anywhere.

You apparently didn't read all my posts.

 

[BC1]

I really enjoyed reading your post and thank you for taking the time to post it. Can you advise me as to how or where to inquire into such training? I am near Springfield, MA and the only place I knew of that offered training like that was S&W and I hear they have curtailed it (and the range as a whole) a couple months ago.

The NRA courses can be found by state at Link Removed. There are several in Hopkinton, MA in the coming months. We'll be publishing our 2013 schedule soon. We're outside of Newburgh, NY... Route 84 West, five minutes from the Hudson river. My fellow PPITH instructor is the founder of Link Removed. I can be reached at [email protected].

 

[Firefighterchen]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

If someone feels they won't be able to control themselves during an attack, they need more training to build confidence. We never know what will happen until it does, but not having confidence now is just a sign of much needed training.

Food for thought, imagine how much stress a fighter pilot or helicopter pilot is in when they are fighting for their life...imagine how many things they have to do to operate their weapon. Training is key, we all have the ability to use our simple firearms like a fighter pilot uses their complicated machine.

Most of us will agree when shtf we will revert back to our training...So before shtf, where are you in your training?

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[mojoman]

I agree with everything you are saying here.

Would I shoot an intruder without blinking an eye in order to protect me or my family? I would sure like to think so but law-strapped Massachusetts makes you think of these things. Nothing worse than having YOUR life in the hands of OTHERS (BG or Judicial system)

The saying is that I would rather do 12 than 6 if push come to it.

 

[BluesStringer]

The saying is that I would rather do 12 than 6 if push come to it.

Actually, the saying is, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6," but it's rather a cliche. Believe me, no one wants either to be the result of a gun fight. While the 12 may be a slightly better option, the potential loss of your freedom is always possible, and it's a 100% certainty that, win or lose, the financial loss will be extreme.

Training to the nth degree is the much better option.

Blues