when is it legal to draw?

[CapGun]

I think I would know if somebody is likely gonna cause me potential harm "not an innocent BG", and me actually pulling out my gun or showing it in my holster are 2 totally different things. Gun in my holster is not illegal, and I will gladly take my chances with law enforcment in either circumstance.......many criminals are spineless, that is why they do what they do. It is going to take a whole lot for me to actually draw my gun, and I dread the day if it were to ever happen to me or the perp. If the word of a person who more than likely has some kind of a record takes presedence over mine.....then I think I will eventually move out of this country.

I think you missed my point entirely. As per my class for Mass LTC if you even print or your gun is accidentally exposed you could face charges of brandishing! Now as far as taking your word or that of someone who has a record keep in mind that past crime record of an individual in court is rarely admissible. Be governed accordingly!

 

[Pokey]

I think you missed my point entirely. As per my class for Mass LTC if you even print or your gun is accidentally exposed you could face charges of brandishing! Now as far as taking your word or that of someone who has a record keep in mind that past crime record of an individual in court is rarely admissible. Be governed accordingly!

Thanks for the insight and good advice, I guess many of us never know what will happen, until it happens. Pretty sad how our judicial system works allot of the time, seems all too often that many innocent folks get the short end of the stick.:angry:

 

[CapGun]

Thanks for the insight and good advice, I guess many of us never know what will happen, until it happens. Pretty sad how our judicial system works allot of the time, seems all too often that many innocent folks get the short end of the stick.:angry:

Apparently, you Sir are a gentleman! I won't let it get around and spoil any reputation!leasantry::yu:

 

[shooter]

it seems we talk about when to fire around here but you can get in trouble for brandishing when it it justified to just draw? what threats need to show up ?

I'm not aware of any laws that specify when it's legal to "bring a gun out" when it's done in a manner consistent with protection of self or others.

There is a difference between "negligent" use of a firearm (brandishing) and deploying it in a responsible manner for defense if/when you believe you are in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey Shooter: Your comments make sense but the only problem is that if you are in that imminent death or great bodily injury situation, showing your firearm will just get you killed. It sure is a last mini-second terrible decision and I understand what you have said, but it just seems to me that you are going to discharge your firearm when you bring it out and point it at someone, if you think that you are about to die. Your comment is good for this forum and is understandable but is, IMO, an impossible situation that does becomes brandishing. Showing your holstered firearm in some sort of casual manner strikes me as being closer to your comment, but that is a step below imminent death or injury--more like a real sense of danger that does not rise to seeing the perp's firearm or knife, or interpreting the words of a group of sleazy looking people who are advancing on you (who you can run away from as the best alternative). I guess this always will come down to your last second decision that is frought with extreme stress and you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[JJFlash]

My first CCW instructor, lo those many years ago, made a point of saying that while you have to be prepared to use it if you need to, just because your weapon clears the holster does NOT mean you have to use it.

If someone is, say, advancing on me with a baseball bat, I consider myself in grave danger. Should I just draw and shoot them? Not if I have time to yank my weapon and gain a little distance. I might be screaming, as that old CCW instructor did, to "STOP" as I draw to the ready position. If the BG advances to the redline, well...If the BG stops, turns around or otherwise lessens his threat, then the threat has been stopped and I'll re-holster when I feel safe. Best outcome for both of us.

 

[BenjaNinja]

I see no problem with "exposing" your piece if the intention is to stop bad things from happening. Sweeping your jacket aside to give a BG the opportunity to make a different decision is not "brandishing", IMO. In fact, I think it's a smart move to head off what could be very dire consequences (for all concerned). If I draw, it would be with the intent to use it, altho, time permitting, I might draw to the "ready" position, and give the BG yet another opportunity to come to his senses. Hope to high heaven it nevers comes to this.

I think that's a very good point. Just letting the BG know that "hey, I'm carrying" it can avoid a whole mess of trouble

 

[kelcarry]

I agree with your reply JJ. Trouble with all of this is writing it on this forum is the easy part--you never make a mistake.

 

[JJFlash]

I think that's a very good point. Just letting the BG know that "hey, I'm carrying" it can avoid a whole mess of trouble

Which is one of the basic arguments for...wait for it...open carry. (Oh, man, opened that can of worms, again...:wacko

 

[BenjaNinja]

Which is one of the basic arguments for...wait for it...open carry. (Oh, man, opened that can of worms, again...:wacko

haha..yeah exactly. I think if everyone was just able to carry on their hip there would be alot less crimes. During the act of a crime generally they are more under control once the cops show up..why? respect? no, because their armed. If a guy goes in to rob a bank and everyone else is armed, he's outnumbered. Basically, if everyone's packing, no one's packing.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey JJ and Benja: Might as well wish for peace and love in the world. My profound statement on the forthcoming eve of Chrstmas--"this world would be a nice place to live if people were not on it". Best to my fellow forum members. God bless, Merry Xmas, and a Happy and Healthy New Year when we just write all this "stuff" and never have to act on any of it.

 

[JJFlash]

Hey JJ and Benja: Might as well wish for peace and love in the world. My profound statement on the forthcoming eve of Chrstmas--"this world would be a nice place to live if people were not on it". Best to my fellow forum members. God bless, Merry Xmas, and a Happy and Healthy New Year when we just write all this "stuff" and never have to act on any of it.

Amen to that. Merry Christmas to you, KC. And to you B.Ninja.

 

[6shootercarry]

Which is one of the basic arguments for...wait for it...open carry. (Oh, man, opened that can of worms, again...:wacko

Oh great here we go...:wacko:

And to add to the entire fray, If you do have to draw it (not on paper) and the attempted assault is avoided, be the first one to call it in and make the statement to the police that you felt threatened and you showed your firearm and the threat ceased.

 

[FN1910]

I am getting in on this thread late but reading through it there have been some good points made. One is the definition of brandishing and if you feel that you are in danger then you are not brandishing. At the same time pulling your coat back to show your gun whether or not you pull it out of the holster is brandishing. Yup, that is confusing and almost contradictory.

Look at it this way. You never pull your gun to scare someone, good guy or bad. You pull it to defend yourself. Just because you pull your gun does not mean you have to pull the trigger. A BG is approaching you and you feel that you are definitely in danger. First you are going to have to pull your coat, shirt, or whatever back, assuming that you are not OC or that your gun is not in the open. Second you are going to have to pull your gun from the holster and then you can pull the trigger. If the BG changes his mind during any of those steps then you don't have to complete the sequence. At no time during all of this are you brandishing your weapon.

If you are not in reasonable danger or want to be sure the tough looking thugs know that you mean business and they have not made any move toward you then any of those actions including just pulling your coat back is brandishing. You pull into a parking lot and there are some rough looking fellows that you have to walk by to get to your destination. They don't even notice you but you want to be sure so you expose your weapon in a manner to be sure they see it. Yes that is brandishing. However you try to ignore them but as you walk by they start making comments and one moves to block your path. You are no longer in the brandishing stage.

But to the OP if you are looking for some law or exact definition of when it is legal to pull your pistol you won't find it other than immediate and grave danger. Remember you never pull or show your weapon just to try and scare someone. Just like you never shoot just to wound. You shoot to stop the threat and you pull your gun to stop the threat. Nothing less.

 

[JJFlash]

I am getting in on this thread late but reading through it there have been some good points made. One is the definition of brandishing and if you feel that you are in danger then you are not brandishing. At the same time pulling your coat back to show your gun whether or not you pull it out of the holster is brandishing. Yup, that is confusing and almost contradictory.

Look at it this way. You never pull your gun to scare someone, good guy or bad. You pull it to defend yourself. Just because you pull your gun does not mean you have to pull the trigger. A BG is approaching you and you feel that you are definitely in danger. First you are going to have to pull your coat, shirt, or whatever back, assuming that you are not OC or that your gun is not in the open. Second you are going to have to pull your gun from the holster and then you can pull the trigger. If the BG changes his mind during any of those steps then you don't have to complete the sequence. At no time during all of this are you brandishing your weapon.

If you are not in reasonable danger or want to be sure the tough looking thugs know that you mean business and they have not made any move toward you then any of those actions including just pulling your coat back is brandishing. You pull into a parking lot and there are some rough looking fellows that you have to walk by to get to your destination. They don't even notice you but you want to be sure so you expose your weapon in a manner to be sure they see it. Yes that is brandishing. However you try to ignore them but as you walk by they start making comments and one moves to block your path. You are no longer in the brandishing stage.

But to the OP if you are looking for some law or exact definition of when it is legal to pull your pistol you won't find it other than immediate and grave danger. Remember you never pull or show your weapon just to try and scare someone. Just like you never shoot just to wound. You shoot to stop the threat and you pull your gun to stop the threat. Nothing less.

I agree with most of your points, FN1910, however, a couple clarifications, at least as far as I'm concerned. Agreed that displaying your weapon just to walk past people who are paying you no attention is probably brandishing and is a good way to get a "man with a gun" called in. OTOH, if some thug is coming around my car and signalling very ill intent, I'd probably move to keep the barrier between us, open my jacket and growl that they've got the wrong guy. Hopefully, that turns 'em around.

As far as the the time during your draw and shoot giving the BG time to reconsider, that won't work for me. I know, for a fact (been tested on it many times) that I can draw from a concealed carry and plant a controlled pair to the thorasic cavity in less than 1.5 seconds. The BG better reconsider damn quick.

Merry Christmas to you!

 

[6shootercarry]

I agree with most of your points, FN1910, however, a couple clarifications, at least as far as I'm concerned. Agreed that displaying your weapon just to walk past people who are paying you no attention is probably brandishing and is a good way to get a "man with a gun" called in. OTOH, if some thug is coming around my car and signalling very ill intent, I'd probably move to keep the barrier between us, open my jacket and growl that they've got the wrong guy. Hopefully, that turns 'em around.

As far as the the time during your draw and shoot giving the BG time to reconsider, that won't work for me. I know, for a fact (been tested on it many times) that I can draw from a concealed carry and plant a controlled pair to the thorasic cavity in less than 1.5 seconds. The BG better reconsider damn quick.

Merry Christmas to you!

+1 I'm not inclined to wait for the BG to display his "Bad Guy Badge"..:sarcastic:

Now that is a product I'd like to see take off...

 

[FN1910]

OTOH, if some thug is coming around my car and signalling very ill intent, I'd probably move to keep the barrier between us, open my jacket and growl that they've got the wrong guy. Hopefully, that turns 'em around.

Exactly my point, a lot of difference between the two of not paying any attention and making a threatening move.

 

[brolin1911a1]

Not only is the law concerning "brandishing" different in each state but what constitutes "brandishing" can vary depending upon the circumstances and alleged intent. In Missouri, there is no law against brandishing as such. However, it is considered illegal use of weapons to "Exhibit, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner." [RSMO 571.030.1 (8)] That means that even though Missouri has legal "open carry" in most places (varies by municipality) someone could still accuse you of trying to threaten by merely sweeping your jacket back and deliberately exposing your previously hidden weapon. It has happened. OTOH, if you spot a suspicious looking character headed towards you and they turn around and walk the other way when you take your jacket off and put it in the car, well, what works works. But...

I learned from better and more experienced instructors than I that if one is going to carry a gun then one must also carry a cell phone. That is because the first to call 911 is generally going to be referred to as "the victim." You want to be the first to call. As that suspicious character departs your presence, pull that phone and call 911 and tell them that you were just approached by a suspicious party and that revealing your gun frightened them off. You'd like to give a report and a description of that man. Become the law-abiding potential victim.

There have, indeed, been cases where attempted robbers or car jackers have been deterred by the sight of the intended victim's gun only to retreat to the far end of a parking lot, call the cops, and report a "woman with a gun acting crazy and threatening people." You be the one to call 911 first.

 

[billwot]

"Those studies and others indicate that often the mere sight of a firearm discourages an attacker. Criminologist John Lott from the University of Florida found that 98 percent of the time when people use guns defensively, simply brandishing a firearm is sufficient to cause a criminal to break off an attack. Lott also found that in less than 2 percent of the cases is the gun fired, and three-fourths of those are warning shots."

Link Removed

 

[billwot]

There have, indeed, been cases where attempted robbers or car jackers have been deterred by the sight of the intended victim's gun only to retreat to the far end of a parking lot, call the cops, and report a "woman with a gun acting crazy and threatening people." You be the one to call 911 first.

I'm sure there have been "cases", but I feel equally sure they are rare. Criminals are not in the habit a initiating any kind of contact with law enforcement.

I have only been in one situation where I felt I was about to become the target of an attack. Displaying my weapon (albeit unintentionally) brought a swift end to the threat. And no, I did not call 911, and apparently neither did they.