What to do about society and the gun-fear the media and libs put into peoples' heads?

[gundaddypv]

Think about our foundation. We are a country formed by guns. We beat the British back with weapons - most of which were made right here in the Colonies. It was common, and even expected, that each household would have at least one weapon, usually their equivalent of an "assault weapon".

Flash-forward to the 1840's... the "old west". Any business which did not allow people to bring firearms into their establishment would be met with mockery, scorn and confusion by the population and wouldn't last long.

And now to preset-day USA. People justify "business rights" as if businesses can have rights like average citizens. They personify businesses and pretend that businesses can get their feelings hurt. They put business rights above the rights of the people to defend their own life and exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. People who want to wear guns openly are scorned and ostracized. People who defend themselves, like the guy working at the convenience store or the bank manager who stopped armed robberies, are terminated - just because they chose to protect themselves and others with a <gasp> gun.

Hobby Lobby, a supposedly devout Christian business, has a "No Firearms" sign at their front door. It makes me wonder how deep their faith really is. Couldn't they just pray that no guns enter their store and expect it to be so?

Our society seems very backwards and our collective thought process seems broken. I see pro-2nd groups demonstrating (some having more success than others) but I'm not seeing a lot of change.

I know people who open-carry in order to try to help change the norm when it comes to guns. By making guns more public and seeing that there are more guns but more people aren't getting shot, they hope to change attitudes.

I personally carry concealed - always - because I've found it impossible to reason or even argue effectively with the anti-gun zombies I meet on occasion.

I'm wondering if I'm way off base, or if I'm right on. I'm also wondering what, if anything, I can do to help the population, even a tiny fraction of the population, start respecting the Constitution and recognizing the rights of others. Your thoughts, criticisms and ideas would be very appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bikenut]

A portion of this was posted elsewhere on the forum yet I think it will fit here also.

Want to know what open carry can accomplish? And yes, someone actually openly carried a shotgun into a library. Follow the link below....

CADL vs. MOC - Chronological History | Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

The decision in this case is huge for Michigan because it not only stopped the Lansing libraries from banning guns but also stopped any and all "authorities"... like the Downtown Development "Authority"... any Municipal Transit "Authority".. and so on... from banning guns. All because some folks were so "stupid" they actually dared to open carry.

Too many folks think nothing can be regained because it appears nothing has changed... and while some very positive things have happened entirely too many people will not open carry because they don't want to be bothered by any hassle or negative opinions/comments from other people.... yet let me ask... what is a fight if it doesn't involve hassle and negative comments/opinions from other people? Let me also ask... isn't actually exercising the right to bear arms where it can be seen part of the fight against those who would restrict bearing arms?

The following is not bragging nor is it the only thing that I (and my wife) do in the fight against anti gunners but is offered as food for thought...

I open carry everywhere I go every day where bearing an arm is legal in Michigan. I enjoy having people come up and ask about my sidearm so I can inform them that they also can openly carry without a permit![/] (some restrictions apply.. know the law!). I have been hassled by the police and I've had the police stand by my side and explain to someone who was hassling me that I was right and they were wrong.

And while all that helps educate people the best thing is going to a fast food place and leaving $5 to help pay for the food of the next person in line. It's hard to be upset with a guy wearing a gun when he just bought your lunch for you. I like to think that is changing minds $5 at a time.

Want to change how the population looks upon firearms? Perhaps, of all the things that can be done, open carry is the most visible way to make the right to bear arms commonplace and change people's minds because eventually, that which is commonplace is accepted and ignored as just being.... commonplace.

Remember... a concealed carry permit is not the right to bear arms but is the exact kind of government control that "shall not be infringed" was supposed to prevent.

 

[telpinaro]

Anyone seen this? Every 2nd Matters | Promoting 2nd Amendment Awareness

Might get a t-shirt as it gets warmer. They even have a maternity shirt! Now that'd start a conversation...

 

[gfrlaser]

Well Put Bikenut. One of the biggest reasons I open carry is to help in the change of perceptions of the populace.

 

[BC1]

Flash-forward to the 1840's... the "old west". Any business which did not allow people to bring firearms into their establishment would be met with mockery, scorn and confusion by the population and wouldn't last long.

And now to preset-day USA. People justify "business rights" as if businesses can have rights like average citizens. They personify businesses and pretend that businesses can get their feelings hurt. They put business rights above the rights of the people to defend their own life and exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.
.
I'm wondering if I'm way off base, or if I'm right on. I'm also wondering what, if anything, I can do to help the population, even a tiny fraction of the population, start respecting the Constitution and recognizing the rights of others. Your thoughts, criticisms and ideas would be very appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

It's a complicated issue. By the 1870's most Western towns would not allow the carrying of a weapon in town. These policies were widely supported by the residents of the cow towns as the denizens of cattle drives would drink heavily. Some of America's most famous lawmen especially throughout Kansas and Missouri instituted these policies. There were no constitutional challenges to the law. These were states, not territories.
.
The right to bear arms as a constitutional amendment is between you and the government. The U.S. Constitution defines the powers of the government. The bill of rights places limitations on those powers. It is not and never was intended to establish some relationship between two people.
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Regarding businesses, they do have rights. Some businesses are sole proprietorships. These are entities that are not separate from the person who owns them. Same tax-id. In this case the person IS the business. Other entities such as corporations, LLC's, partnerships are actually defined through the department of state as individual entities. They have their own existence. They have their own tax-id. They are recognized as existing and self-sufficient entities. In fact members of an LLC enjoy limited liability from the actions of the LLC or other members (partners). The location of the business is usually not a public place. It is a private location, owned or rented by the business entity. that entity is free (thank God) to determine its own fate and what activities it allows on its premises. There is no second amendment in existence between you and another person or a private entity. There's also no first or fourth amendment. A business suspecting you of shoplifting will detain and search you. These rights exists only between you and the government.
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Last year my neighbor had tile work being done in his home. I saw him searching around the property and went over. He couldn't find $2,200 in cash that he brought home to pay the tile guys. It was in his wallet but he fell asleep for a few minutes while they were working. The money was gone. I suggested we approach the workers. They claimed no knowledge. We searched them right in his house and found his money. We detained them. He called LE and they were arrested. One guy kept complaining that we searched him and violated his rights. Good luck with that. He pled guilty.

 

[farsidefan1]

My experience is that a real anti gunner type isn't going to be persuaded from their position till they experience at a very personal level how it feels to be at the mercy of a predator. After they have been raped, beaten had someone close to them killed or raped you may find them in the NRA section of the internet. But as long as they view violence as stuff that happens others or to those that "deserve it" or so incredibly rare that no normal person has to worry about it then you are talking to a blank wall.

I think the best thing we can do is be responsible gun owners and treat others with differing opinions with respect. I was going to say "don't come across as a wild eyed looney" but that would be like passing anti gun legislation giving instructions to those that don't need it. What wild eyed looney would look at that comment and decide, "well, I guess I will stop being a wild eyed loony"? Kind of like thinking passing anti gun laws will stop outlaws from breaking the law. Both are fruitless endeavors.

 

[BC1]

My experience is that a real anti gunner type isn't going to be persuaded from their position till they experience at a very personal level how it feels to be at the mercy of a predator. After they have been raped, beaten had someone close to them killed or raped you may find them in the NRA section of the internet. But as long as they view violence as stuff that happens others or to those that "deserve it" or so incredibly rare that no normal person has to worry about it then you are talking to a blank wall.

I think the best thing we can do is be responsible gun owners and treat others with differing opinions with respect. I was going to say "don't come across as a wild eyed looney" but that would be like passing anti gun legislation giving instructions to those that don't need it. What wild eyed looney would look at that comment and decide, "well, I guess I will stop being a wild eyed loony"? Kind of like thinking passing anti gun laws will stop outlaws from breaking the law. Both are fruitless endeavors.

My dad always said the difference between a pro and anti gunner is "one good mugging."

 

[kelcarry]

My experience is that a real anti gunner type isn't going to be persuaded from their position till they experience at a very personal level how it feels to be at the mercy of a predator. After they have been raped, beaten had someone close to them killed or raped you may find them in the NRA section of the internet. But as long as they view violence as stuff that happens others or to those that "deserve it" or so incredibly rare that no normal person has to worry about it then you are talking to a blank wall.

Unfortunately what you say in the above quote of your reply is what it is all about--that and the fact that the very people who are a position to insist on more gun control are hypocrites. The high office holders have their paid for security (ala the secret service etal) and the legislators have their fair share of firearms that they would never admit to. Do you really think Sen Feinstein sits around on her porch welcoming all her constituents in CA without security or a firearm in her little purse? Unfortunately the only thing that will wake up the foolish, even the judges and the judiciary who, for the most part, are part of select groups exempt under many gun laws, is for some of these cretins out there to visit their homes. If their families are visited by this kind of violence by some predators, maybe they will realize there is no ivory tower out there for them to wallow in. Worse than that is the wake-up call that will come when the idiot in the whitehouse decides it is time for him to be like Putin and Hitler and Stalin and MAO and lets loose all the federal alphabet soup enforcement people (FBI, SS, ATF, Homeland Security etal) and his SEIU/Acorn piles of garbage to form their own federal OCCUPY group that will let the rest of us, including all these "heads in the sands" goody goody liberal idiots, that he is charge now and YOU WILL DO WHAT HE SAYS and Sharia is the law of the land. Lots of Germans, particularly Jews in the 1930's felt like this group of liberal idiots--ya know ---"I'm a lawful respected citizen of a great country (Germany) with a charismatic leader (Hitler) who is leading us to the promised land"---they were disarmed, they were told what to do by the German government alphabet soup enforcement (ever hear of the Brown Shirts, the Gestapo, the SS?) and they were not long for the world once the ball got rolling. Can't happen here? You are a fool and an ostrich with your head in the sand if you think that way. I am Jewish and I am not a sheep and if you come to my house to tell me to take a train ride to Idaho to a nice little resort in the hills, someone will go to hell before I go to heaven--I am not a sheep.

 

[apvbguy]

the very short answer is that we are in it deep, the indoctrination of so many is ingrained so deep that the nation we knew will soon perish from this earth. some people are total morons! and those are the better educated one.

 

[r1derbike]

Where did all this ignorance come from? When did the defective brain DNA become entrenched in so many obviously intelligent people, only to breed illogical, skewed, and emotion based stupidity?

What happened to all the free-range thinkers? Has society become a horde of hand-wringing, shrinking violets due to the MSM circus? I cannot believe how many people have been affected by our criminal government and MSM bias. And they don't question anything? Unbelievable.

I may remember a time when men were men, and women were proud of it.

 

[apvbguy]

Where did all this ignorance come from? When did the defective brain DNA become entrenched in so many obviously intelligent people, only to breed illogical, skewed, and emotion based stupidity?

What happened to all the free-range thinkers? Has society become a horde of hand-wringing, shrinking violets due to the MSM circus? I cannot believe how many people have been affected by our criminal government and MSM bias. And they don't question anything? Unbelievable.

I may remember a time when men were men, and women were proud of it.

decades of libturds infestation in the educational process. too many people asleep at the switch not knowing or not caring who is pumping crap into their children's heads.

 

[wolf_fire]

Think about our foundation. We are a country formed by guns. We beat the British back with weapons - most of which were made right here in the Colonies. It was common, and even expected, that each household would have at least one weapon, usually their equivalent of an "assault weapon".

Flash-forward to the 1840's... the "old west". Any business which did not allow people to bring firearms into their establishment would be met with mockery, scorn and confusion by the population and wouldn't last long.

And now to preset-day USA. People justify "business rights" as if businesses can have rights like average citizens. They personify businesses and pretend that businesses can get their feelings hurt. They put business rights above the rights of the people to defend their own life and exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. People who want to wear guns openly are scorned and ostracized. People who defend themselves, like the guy working at the convenience store or the bank manager who stopped armed robberies, are terminated - just because they chose to protect themselves and others with a <gasp> gun.

Hobby Lobby, a supposedly devout Christian business, has a "No Firearms" sign at their front door. It makes me wonder how deep their faith really is. Couldn't they just pray that no guns enter their store and expect it to be so?

Our society seems very backwards and our collective thought process seems broken. I see pro-2nd groups demonstrating (some having more success than others) but I'm not seeing a lot of change.

I know people who open-carry in order to try to help change the norm when it comes to guns. By making guns more public and seeing that there are more guns but more people aren't getting shot, they hope to change attitudes.

I personally carry concealed - always - because I've found it impossible to reason or even argue effectively with the anti-gun zombies I meet on occasion.

I'm wondering if I'm way off base, or if I'm right on. I'm also wondering what, if anything, I can do to help the population, even a tiny fraction of the population, start respecting the Constitution and recognizing the rights of others. Your thoughts, criticisms and ideas would be very appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

This is not meant to sound mocking.

How do you get people to accept firearms? Let them see them on a citizen who is not a bad guy. In other words, don't CC. Open carry and be an example that good guys walk around day in and day out and bad things don't happen just because they have a firearm.

You will actually get engaged in conversations about your firearms and why you personally carry. Sure, you may run across the occasional a$$hole, but who doesn't in their life?

 

[dusterdude]

Hobby lobby???didnt notice a sign when i was there about 3 weeks ago.ill have to take a closer look when i go there again

 

[gundaddypv]

Indoctrination seems to be the prevailing theme. How could we un-brainwash an entire population... or can it even be done. I recently started reading some TEOTWAWKI books... and it seems that most authors believe there is no way to fix it... and some will fall no matter what. Does everyone agree that more than half the population will never change their mind?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Hobby lobby???didnt notice a sign when i was there about 3 weeks ago.ill have to take a closer look when i go there again

No sign at the Hobby Lobby near me or the store we used to go to before the closer one opened. I've open carried in Hobby Lobby 6 or 7 times with no issue.

 

[kelcarry]

Where did all this ignorance come from? When did the defective brain DNA become entrenched in so many obviously intelligent people, only to breed illogical, skewed, and emotion based stupidity?

What happened to all the free-range thinkers? Has society become a horde of hand-wringing, shrinking violets due to the MSM circus? I cannot believe how many people have been affected by our criminal government and MSM bias. And they don't question anything? Unbelievable.

I may remember a time when men were men, and women were proud of it.

You are absolutely right. The media is in all these idiots' pockets and in particularly that piece of garbage in the whitehouse. Thomas Jefferson is probably turning over in his grave wondering what happened to his Freedom of the Press and its role in uncovering fed abuses and forcing the issue to its citizens. Can you even imagine what would have been done to George Bush if he had done the things that this excuse has done over the last 6 years--he would have been hounded mercilessly out of office by now. Remember Gonzalez--his AG--Holder makes him look like a Boy Scout, but Gonzalez had to resign. We are a very sick society and country that is going down the sewer of once great nations as we are led there by the king of cesspool government.

 

[dogshawred]

Indoctrination seems to be the prevailing theme. How could we un-brainwash an entire population... or can it even be done. I recently started reading some TEOTWAWKI books... and it seems that most authors believe there is no way to fix it... and some will fall no matter what. Does everyone agree that more than half the population will never change their mind?

The problem I have with the mindset in bold is believing this will only make people resistant to trying to make a difference in the world we live today. If half won't change why bother, if half already have their mind made up what is the use, giving up before you start is how we got to where we are today. Apathetic attitudes by society have allowed people to take control of the minds of our children decades ago, feeding them a liberal line of crap that to young minds seemed sensible, seemed proper, seemed moral. Today those minds are in control and what seemed sensible, proper and moral has degraded our country and corrupted our political endeavors even more.
~
Being that example of what is right with our nation by exercising your God given right is what we as individuals can do to make a better world. Don't allow the tiny thinkers to keep you down, it is time for Non-conformity to rear it's head make her/his self be known to the world, it will just take consistency in an insane world for people to take notice and one by one there will be a positive response one citizen at a time.
~
Yeah I am an optimist, but I am also an OC'er for life.

 

[chilipeppernorm]

My perspective is somewhat different. I believe much of the anti Constitution anti Rights movement is a result of this nation no longer having a sense of shared obligation and sacrifice to the nation and fellow Americans. My grandfathers saw combat in WW1, my father was in the Army and stationed at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th when the Japanese attacked and he fought the entire war in the Pacific. Him and virtually all of my uncles saw combat in either the Pacific, Europe, or North Africa in WW2. My dad and several uncles doubled down for the Korean War. I was Infantry with the 1st Cav in Vietnam, I volunteered. I never once heard any of the men in my family stake a claim for heroism or being special, in fact it was very rare for them to speak of their service. Nor did they ever disparage anyone who couldn't or didn't serve, it was simply what one did to defend the nation and maintain a free people under the Constitution, a shared obligation.

The Vietnam war changed all of that, those who could gain access to college were given a deferment having been deemed too important or special for whatever reason, were not to be obligated for military service and far flung combat adventures of the political class. This marked the end of shared obligation for the nation, and many of those special deferred Baby Boomers went on to become political leaders in the White House and Congress and Senate. As a result, we have an all volunteer military resulting in a relatively small portion of the nation bearing the burden of war and sacrifice. These same privileged political idiots have bred and raised a whole new generation of privileged classes whom only think of self and willingly go along with selective interpretation and application of the Constitution, as well as the passing of un-Constitutional laws as long as they get their cookies.

Gun owners are by definition a peaceful lot, as one can't have a criminal history and legally buy a weapon. In my experience we have jobs and careers, pay taxes, contribute to a lawful and peaceful society, and pretty much have a live and let live philosophy and don't get in other peoples faces for no good reason. As a result, the liberal controlling elite think we're sheep and continuously push and try and strip us of our rights as they believe this is their privilege, and our due. I believe it is our shared obligation to demonstrate that they've made a grave error in judgement.

 

[nosreme]

Sorry, but I firmly believe that OC is not at all likely to change any anti gun opinions. Those who already know and respect the open carrier won't care and aren't the ones whose opinions need to be changed anyway. Strangers who are already "gun friendly" (or at least not opposed even if they don't want one) will likely be largely indifferent unless they see the open carrier around a school or playground or standing behind them at night at a remote ATM. Strangers who are opposed to guns and to OC will almost certainly redouble their opinions that open carriers are the very people who shouldn't have guns because they view open carrying (except in places like maybe Two Dot, Montana) as symptomatic of narcissistic calculated obnoxiousness. That's the very kind of provocative behavior (in their view) that contributes to their anti-gun beliefs in the first place. They feel that way about guns in part from ignorance, in part from simpleminded reasoning that guns are easier to accuse of being evil and dangerous (and to eliminate) than people with mental, emotional, or social adjustment "issues."

 

[dusterdude]

Ive always said,ending the drsft was a big mistake