What size is the right size?
- Thread starter Audioi
- Start date
One of my favorite aphorisms is Albert Einstein’s, ‘All knowledge (all, ‘proper understanding’)(Ed.) begins with an accurate definition of terms.’ Which is a nice way of asking: Why are you worried about hiding your EDC pistol? It’s a viable tool for self-defense - Right? The better you hide it, the tougher and slower it’s going to be for you to get to whenever you really need it, most.
Because I’m reluctant to begin an armed confrontation with any secondary-size pistol, (Like the little Beretta, ‘Alleycat’ I keep in an outside pocket.) during the wintertime I often won’t even close the front of my overcoat. When I’m sitting in a car I never pull the seatbelt over the top of a coat lapel. Why? Because that lapel has got to move, and move quick, if I should need to get to the full-size pistol that’s underneath it. None of these PERSONAL SECURITY HABITS have anything to do with hiding the pistol.
Know what? It’s entirely possible to carry a pistol and actually increase, rather than decrease, your personal risk factor(s): e.g., an armed civilian, who in expectation of that illusive, ‘pregnant moment’, carries his striker-fired pistol around in C-1 all day long while he’s among his: family, friends, neighbors, and coworkers.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO THAT - IT’S JUST ONE MORE NEEDLESS RISK THAT MOST CASUALLY ARMED* PEOPLE REALLY DON’T NEED TO TAKE. (MYSELF AND, AT LEAST, A HALF-DOZEN OTHER MEN I’VE KNOWN ARE LIVING PROOF THAT WHAT I’M SAYING IS TRUE!)
All C-1 carry does is to, partially, solve a casually armed* civilian’s own selfish desire, ‘to be safe’ while, simultaneously, placing everybody else in his day-to-day world at significant risk from his fully charged pistol. (Earlier this week a local high school had a gun accident occur when, for reasons known only to himself, some idiot security guard ND’d his Glock in a building full of schoolchildren - Schoolchildren! What, the hell, was he thinking; or, …… was he, perhaps, just being human?)
Did this exceedingly foolish fellow really NEED to be in C-1? Did he really? Of course not! He CHOSE to be in C-1! Now his name will be added to the long list of gun-toting, ‘Glockeroos’ and other, ‘cowboys’ who’ve incidentally, ‘let one go’ among the general public!
He looks bad; AND, by association, the rest of us look bad too. All because of his fantastical, marginally trained, ‘cowboy mentality’, his fully charged, C-1, striker-fired pistol, and selfish delusions of infallible personal formidability! (His safety was, of course, (Where?) ‘between his ears’; or, perhaps, ‘up his ass’, or some other such mysterious place! In any case he’s, obviously, seen, ‘Blackhawk Down’ one too many times!)
This sorry event is just one more example of the: Thick as a brick, and inconsiderate as hell mentality of those who believe, ‘If it ain’t got one in the chamber then it’s a brick'. Broadly speaking, sidearms may be divided into two general categories: (1) Those that are convenient, easy-to-hide, and comfortable to carry; and (2) others that are ideally suited for, and efficacious to use during an actual CQB pistol gunfight.
All guns, however, are always dangerous - Dangerous to everybody no matter which side of the muzzle you are on! I’ve been carrying pistols for a long time; and I’ve been using guns of all different sorts for even longer. (Like a half-century!)
As my own knowledge, understanding, and skill with handguns has increased I’ve gone way beyond the C-1, ‘instantaneous ambush’ (Glockeroo cowboy) mentality of armed, everyday, street civilians; and graduated to being more of a genuine threat to bad guys rather than a general threat to everyone in the neighborhood - including myself. (‘Why’? Because, truth be told, NONE of us is perfect; and anyone who asserts otherwise is either a fool, a liar, or both!)
Using a handgun well is an acquired skill; all handguns are, by varying degrees, inherently dangerous; and some are more difficult to employ and carry safely than others. Years ago I worked in a very busy gun shop; and I sold a lot of guns to a lot of different people. I couldn’t help, but, smile whenever someone asked me for my opinion of which handgun is the most comfortable to carry?
DO YOU WANT TO STAY ALIVE? THEN YOU’VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO LOOK BEYOND THE IMMEDIACY OF YOUR OWN SELFISH DESIRES! PERSONAL SAFETY, AND PERSONAL COMFORT ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS. IN FACT THE ONE IS OFTEN ANTITHETICAL TO THE OTHER.
It adds nothing to your personal safety, to walk around all day long feeling comfortable while you successfully hide a smallish, ‘gee whiz pistol’ about your person. It’s true! These little guns are, ‘all the rage’, right now, with the national gun-carrying crowd. To my mind, however, it’s one thing to be carrying a C-3, G-21, and entirely another thing, all together, to be carrying a C-1, M&P, ‘Shield’, ‘Bodyguard’; or NAA, 380 Auto, ‘Guardian’. (Remember, you are anticipating, ‘shooting for your life’!)
The latter types of, ‘secondary pistols’ may be easily concealed and seldom noticed, while the former type of, ‘primary pistol’ has to be inconveniently lugged, about, from place to place. (I ought to know because I do it all day long!) The tradeoff? That would be increased lethality, better balance in the hand, a better sight picture, and improved ease-of-use. Tough decision, isn’t it!
Carrying a gun isn’t a game. Neither is it supposed to be an open-carry, ‘cowboy’ sort of activity; nor should it be like sucking on a pacifier while rocking in mommy’s arms; and it’s never fun. (Yes, that’s right: The correct mental and emotional attitudes go along, hand-in-hand, with the correct gun!) If you’re going to carry and handle a pistol correctly, then, it requires a good deal of extra effort.
Those of us who anticipate the need to be seriously armed - Which, as America becomes progressively more and more godless, is more rather than less people - understand that EDC’ ing a substantial handgun, everyday, is not fun and never comfortable.
Perceived need is, of course, highly subjective; but, if someone doesn’t really need to carry a gun then, in this old gunman’s opinion, he’s going to be working too hard and creating, rather than absolving himself of, risk!
Neither is the reality of EDC anything like it appears to be in the movies. In the movies, ‘your safety just might be between your ears’, or (often, but not always) in an infallibly straight trigger finger; however in, ‘real time’, out in the real world, reality has a way of hitting very hard; and things can be very different. In the real world accidents actually can, and often do, happen!
My own humongous G-21 is, unquestionably, a handgun that a person can do some serious CQB pistol gunfighting with. Here, you may take me at my word: It’s C-3 condition-of-readiness is far less significant, far less important, than what’s going on, or should be going on, (Ready?) ‘between your ears’! Other, smaller, C-1, ‘gee whiz pistols’ are (what I like to call) cute little, ‘pacifier pistols’ - Good for sucking on whenever a little, ‘cowpoke’ feels insecure; but not so good for attempting to actually defend your life with.
It’s anecdote time! Remember that very busy gun shop I, once, worked in? OK, one bustling weekend afternoon 10 or 12 Latinos came sauntering in. I was standing at the far end of the counter, almost immediately next to the entry door. For whatever reasons the group decided to stop right in front of me while the young adult males, ‘mixed it up’ together. They were speaking in the abstruse, ‘mystery language’ of El Español; so, of course, never having been to someplace like Home Depot, or Lowe’s, before, I didn’t have the slightest idea what they were saying to one another.
(Not!) :laugh:
Normally, I wouldn’t have been carefully listening; but I couldn’t ignore, ‘the tude’ this group was exuding. (Ready?) These guys were discussing, ‘knocking over’ the shop! Right then! Right there! I couldn’t believe my ears! (What a bunch of clowns they must have thought we, all, looked like; and I wasn’t even wearing my Bugs Bunny wabbit costume! Imagine!)
:sarcastic:
El Jefe wasn’t so sure; but his, ‘shot caller’ was raring to go! On our side of the counter there was a retired local police sergeant, a part-time NYC police officer, the boss’s not too bright younger brother, and a Vietnam vet whom I knew slept with a tactical AR underneath the edge of his bed. There were, also, two more people in the back office; one was an always heavily-armed, former Marine.
While I was, ‘adding up the score’ I immediately knew the (very comfortable) secondary, Beretta Model 3032 in my front left pocket was already completely useless! So it was going to be the C-3, Glock Model 21 on my right hip that I’d be forced to, ‘negotiate’ with.
That gave me a total of 12 + 16 rounds in two magazines with which to offer an effective defense. (One was a standard Glock magazine that was downloaded by one round; and the other was an extended Arredondo magazine, also, downloaded by one round.) That was a heck of a lot more ammo than we used to carry in the, ‘old days’! Believe me: Big, cumbersome, difficult-to-conceal, and uncomfortable never felt so good!
As I stood there trying to appreciate the reality of what was unfolding before my eyes, my brain began to slip into, ‘reflex mode’. Various gang members began picking out their targets, and started to walk further into the store:
Three of these young men buddied up with our NYC police officer and began an animated conversation. Three more pendejos walked up to the old police sergeant. (Old, yes, but a really, ‘serious dude’ who enjoyed regaling us, at lunchtime, with exciting tales of several vicious gunfights he’d been in during his, almost, 30 years on the force!)
Both men started taking pistols out of the display cases, cleared them, and let their, ‘prospective customers’ start handling them. Two or three more of these, ‘bangers’ started the usual gun shop banter with the boss’ dimwitted brother - They were, all, about the same age; and the dummy seemed to be enjoying himself while they joked around with him! (Actually I think the, ‘bangers’ were having more fun!)
:wink:
Wow! It was a full house; and I was impressed with how really smooth and (Excuse the pun!) ‘disarming’ these fellows were! (Muy bien!) Our nostalgic Vietnam vet was tied up with a real customer; and, now, almost everyone behind the sales counter was dealing with someone who was about to pull a pistol on him and shout, something like, ‘Manos arriba, dumbass!’
Everyone, that is, except little ol’ me! Apparently, I was so harmless looking that I, somehow, managed to blend in perfectly with the carpet! (Which is, now that I think about it, EXACTLY the way you want to start any gunfight.)
Still, I was genuinely concerned, and thought about things like not having had a chance to either thank, or say goodbye to my wife. One of them had to start the fight; and I had to wait, at least, until I saw somebody’s hand move to his waistline. (Yes out in the real world, in real time, ‘verification’ is seldom a good thing!)
Then it hit me! All of a sudden I realized the group’s, ‘Achilles’ heel’: El Supremo! There he was, directly opposite me, standing less than 5 yards away! (Hell, I’d made shots like that many thousands of times before; and, with the reflex now thoroughly ingrained, I wouldn’t even need to use my pistol’s sights! All I had to do was, ‘square up the back of the slide’; and he and his compañeros were gone!)
He was the one person in that room who could stop everything from, ‘going South’ before the event kicked-off; (I know, another pun!) and it was to him that I gave my, now, undivided attention. (So I look like the carpet; do I, dumbass! OK, here comes, ‘El Piso Grande’.)
Young men are always a problem; they’ve often got more, ‘stones’ than brains, and always far too much self-confidence. As I watched his crew work the counter staff I knew, ‘it’ was about to happen. Only El Jefe, with his two chiquitas, and what I assumed to be his personal bodyguards could stop what the rest of the gang was about to do.
Short of drawing my pistol - Which would have required me to: grab, draw, charge the chamber, AND thrust the muzzle into the first of, at least, three consecutive targets, (All of which I intended to drop.) I saw no way to either warn my fellow coworkers, or stop the robbery. There simply wasn’t anything else I could do. So, away went my affable, award-winning, sales personality. (Really!) I stopped being the, ‘same color as the carpet’, and let my deep-seated and very real, Sicilian alter-ego raise up, ‘out of the box’. (This guy is so scary that he even frightens me! In fact, the less I see of him the happier I am; but genetics is, after all, genetics.)
:laugh:
As I slowly moved my right hand towards my great big G-21, which I carried, AITB, in an open-topped Kydex holster, I began staring at El Supremo - Just staring. (You know, that, ‘picking out the buttonhole kind ‘a stare’!) It was, sort of, amusing! There I was, doing my best impersonation of Alan Ladd leaning back against the bar at Grafton’s General Store, with one foot elevated against the rail, and that big, beautiful, silver, Colt SAA Cavalry Model protruding prominently from his side! (What a great movie, huh!)
Giving credit where credit is due, El Jefe was smart! I didn’t have to say a word. All I had to do was fixate him with my stare; and, voilà, hijo de perra, he understood! He immediately ordered the two, ‘bangers’ with him to leave the store; they didn’t want to go; but they did as they were told. Then, he walked down the counter and whispered something to the others who were busy engaging the boss’s brother and the NYC cop.
There was some argument, a loud protest or two, but everybody listened to him. Slowly, and not without obvious disagreement, the gang made its way back to the front of the store. Attracted by the noise the Marine came out of the office to see what was going on. He knew me well; and, when he saw that I was on the door, he seemed to relax.
On the way out the, ‘shot caller’ and two Latinas momentarily stopped to pilfer a couple of boxes of Russian 7.62 x 39mm cartridges off a display shelf. I saw it; or, at least, I saw their hands move down to the ammo shelf; and I, kind ‘a, knew what they had to be doing; but I didn’t think it wise to interfere. (They had their pride; and I thought it a small price to pay for not having things go any further!)
After they left the old sergeant came over and asked, ‘What just happened here?’ That’s when I told him I spoke their language; and the group that had just left the store was some sort of NYC street gang who, at least initially, intended to rob us. He nodded his head; and said, ‘When I was working I often wished I understood more Spanish.’ Then he looked at me and said, ‘That’s why you let them get away with the ammo?’ I answered, ‘Yes!’ He was a part owner of the store; and, as he walked away, he remarked over his shoulder, ‘Thanks!’ ‘We’re going to have to discuss how we want to handle a situation like that before it happens again.’
‘Why’ am I telling you this adorable little story? I’m telling you because, contrary to what most people like to fool themselves into believing,
TROUBLE IS NOT GOING TO COME TO THEM ON THEIR OWN, COMFORTABLE AND CONVENIENT, TERMS OF ENGAGEMENT. IT WILL BE UNEXPECTED, INCONVENIENT; AND, MORE THAN LIKELY, THOROUGHLY DISADVANTAGEOUS.
KNOW WHAT? IF TROUBLE SHOULD EVER REAR ITS UGLY HEAD IN YOUR OWN LIFE, IT WILL, ALSO, COME TO YOU IN EXACTLY THE SAME ALARMING AND UNEXPECTED WAY. ‘WHY’? PROBABLY BECAUSE IT’S THE DEVIL’S WORLD; AND THIS IS THE TRUE NATURE OF TROUBLE!
There is a very high probability that your little, C-1, ‘gee whiz pistol’ isn’t going to be enough gun! Contrary to another popular misconception, the first rule of gunfighting isn’t, ‘Have a gun!’ Instead it’s, ‘Prevail!’ ‘Prevail!’ ‘Do everything you possibly can before, during, and after the fight in order to win!’ Trouble is going to come to you on the other guy’s terms, NOT on your own; and it will usually occur, at a time and in a place, when it’s least expected.
I’m a (now retired) firearms instructor, too. I think a damned good one; and, I’ve trained some really serious people to do some really serious things with firearms. I think THIS is what your own pistol instructor is trying to get across to you. In this day and age it doesn’t really matter what condition-of-readiness your EDC pistol is in: C-0, C-1, C-2, or C-3. It doesn’t matter! What does matter is whether or not you know, ‘What’ to do, ‘When’ to do it; and, ‘How’ to skillfully employ a pistol once you make up your mind to begin using it.
Anything else is internet gun forum bull crap; and, sometimes, I really get tired of IGF bull crap. Bull crap from people who’ve never been, and never done, but still remain absolutely positive that they know all the right answers. It’s simple! All ya got ‘a do is reflect whatever the most vociferous board members are parroting; and, voilà, all of a sudden, like, you’re absolutely correct; your way is the only right way; there are no variables, no liabilities, and you’ve got plenty of company from the other, ‘geniuses’ on the board!
I watched this happen to Dr. Michael Courtney. Back in 2010 the good doctor was excoriated across a wide variety of different gun boards. Wow, did Dr. Courtney and his new ideas take abuse! All the internet tough guys were lined-up against him and his radical new ballistic theories. Time passes, it’s now 2015; and what's happened? Turns out that Dr. Courtney was right all along - Even when Dr. Martin Fackler, and (literally) 100’s of vehemently opposed and always offensive gun board members attempted to publicly flay him.
Well, well, well! There really is such a authentic phenomenon as ballistic hydrostatic shock; it’s a necessary component of all effective bullet stoppages. The greater the shock, the more likely the target is to become immediately incapacitated, and go down. Is there any bad news? Yes, there is! As things have turned out, there ain’t a heck of a lot of ballistic hydrostatic shock available from any of the popular handgun combat cartridges - Cartridges like the 9 x 19mm rounds that you are presently considering.
(No, I’m NOT telling you not to use a 9mm pistol. I, simply, want you to BE AWARE of how things are going to actually work out for ya. Whenever I carry a 9 x 19mm pistol I, also, carry twice the amount of 45 ACP or 10mm ammo that I normally carry. Neither do I, ever, fire only one 9mm round; nor have I ever trained anyone to.)
Like all CQB pistol gunfights the contest will be determined by whoever hits his target first and most effectively. Now listen carefully: The condition-of-readiness of a pistol does NOT determine who’s going to win, or who’s going to hit the target first - It does NOT! With other things, more or less, equal the contest will be decided in favor of the gunman,
WHO MOVES FIRST! (Profound, isn’t it!)
More important considerations than what condition-of-readiness your pistol is in are whether or not you TRULY know how to CQB pistol gunfight, and whether or not you’re actually able to use your handgun EFFECTIVELY against one, or more attackers?
Right now you’ve got a lot of important confrontational questions to answer, as well as any number of plausible, ‘What If’ scenarios to work out in your head. Questions like:
‘How effective does whatever gun I carry really need to be?’
‘Where should I carry it?’ (Remember, 4:30 and 7:30 are no good when you’re sitting down inside a vehicle.)
‘How should I start my draw?’
‘At what distance should I begin to draw from?’
‘How do I aim; and where do I hold?’
‘Should I, ‘grab’ the front sight; or should I simply, ‘square up’ the back of the slide?’
‘Single-tap, double-tap, triple tap, Mozambique, what?’
‘What are the most likely activities at which, and where are the most likely places, I might be successful attacked as I move throughout the day?’
‘What would I do if I were attacked on the way to my car?’ (You’re most likely to be ambushed while you’re in transit than at any other time.)
‘What would I do if I were attacked as soon as I walked through my own front door?’ (‘BTK-like killers’ are very rare! The vast majority of assailants will attack you during the first minute or two after you enter a building.)
‘Should I do a gun-in-hand, ‘room-by-room’ search as soon as I get home?’ (Many police officers do!)
‘What if there are two (or more) assailants?’
‘As I begin firing should I take one step backwards, and to my left hand side; or should I do both?’ (If your assailant is a right-handed gunman, then, that’s exactly what you should do.)
‘Should I invest in a bullet-resistant vest?’ ‘Would I even wear it if I did?’ (Most people don’t!)
Finally, ‘What is the best way to, ‘dress around the gun?’ Which is, I think, the question you’re really asking.
These are many of the really important, ‘What If’ questions and hypothetical confrontational scenarios that you should be working your way through, right now. NOT, ‘Does this gun make my ass look fat?’ or, ‘Are people going to be able to easily see it?’ There’s, also, an entire drill - a manual-at-arms, if you will - for how to move stealthily while you’re carrying a pistol, a BIG pistol! Have you learned it, yet?
* Casually Armed: Any armed civilian who has no apparent, demonstrable, or immediate need to do so is, in fact, ‘casually armed’. Furthermore, anyone who travels about in this sort of generally civil environment and believes that being in C-1 (or, with a striker-fired pistol, in C-0) is going to save himself from the immediate dire consequences of an instantaneous CQB pistol or knife ambush is - I assure you - seriously fooling himself! Outside of a church that sort of magical, 'super-physical' protection doesn't exist!
Because I’m reluctant to begin an armed confrontation with any secondary-size pistol, (Like the little Beretta, ‘Alleycat’ I keep in an outside pocket.) during the wintertime I often won’t even close the front of my overcoat. When I’m sitting in a car I never pull the seatbelt over the top of a coat lapel. Why? Because that lapel has got to move, and move quick, if I should need to get to the full-size pistol that’s underneath it. None of these PERSONAL SECURITY HABITS have anything to do with hiding the pistol.
Know what? It’s entirely possible to carry a pistol and actually increase, rather than decrease, your personal risk factor(s): e.g., an armed civilian, who in expectation of that illusive, ‘pregnant moment’, carries his striker-fired pistol around in C-1 all day long while he’s among his: family, friends, neighbors, and coworkers.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO THAT - IT’S JUST ONE MORE NEEDLESS RISK THAT MOST CASUALLY ARMED* PEOPLE REALLY DON’T NEED TO TAKE. (MYSELF AND, AT LEAST, A HALF-DOZEN OTHER MEN I’VE KNOWN ARE LIVING PROOF THAT WHAT I’M SAYING IS TRUE!)
All C-1 carry does is to, partially, solve a casually armed* civilian’s own selfish desire, ‘to be safe’ while, simultaneously, placing everybody else in his day-to-day world at significant risk from his fully charged pistol. (Earlier this week a local high school had a gun accident occur when, for reasons known only to himself, some idiot security guard ND’d his Glock in a building full of schoolchildren - Schoolchildren! What, the hell, was he thinking; or, …… was he, perhaps, just being human?)
Did this exceedingly foolish fellow really NEED to be in C-1? Did he really? Of course not! He CHOSE to be in C-1! Now his name will be added to the long list of gun-toting, ‘Glockeroos’ and other, ‘cowboys’ who’ve incidentally, ‘let one go’ among the general public!
He looks bad; AND, by association, the rest of us look bad too. All because of his fantastical, marginally trained, ‘cowboy mentality’, his fully charged, C-1, striker-fired pistol, and selfish delusions of infallible personal formidability! (His safety was, of course, (Where?) ‘between his ears’; or, perhaps, ‘up his ass’, or some other such mysterious place! In any case he’s, obviously, seen, ‘Blackhawk Down’ one too many times!)
This sorry event is just one more example of the: Thick as a brick, and inconsiderate as hell mentality of those who believe, ‘If it ain’t got one in the chamber then it’s a brick'. Broadly speaking, sidearms may be divided into two general categories: (1) Those that are convenient, easy-to-hide, and comfortable to carry; and (2) others that are ideally suited for, and efficacious to use during an actual CQB pistol gunfight.
All guns, however, are always dangerous - Dangerous to everybody no matter which side of the muzzle you are on! I’ve been carrying pistols for a long time; and I’ve been using guns of all different sorts for even longer. (Like a half-century!)
As my own knowledge, understanding, and skill with handguns has increased I’ve gone way beyond the C-1, ‘instantaneous ambush’ (Glockeroo cowboy) mentality of armed, everyday, street civilians; and graduated to being more of a genuine threat to bad guys rather than a general threat to everyone in the neighborhood - including myself. (‘Why’? Because, truth be told, NONE of us is perfect; and anyone who asserts otherwise is either a fool, a liar, or both!)
Using a handgun well is an acquired skill; all handguns are, by varying degrees, inherently dangerous; and some are more difficult to employ and carry safely than others. Years ago I worked in a very busy gun shop; and I sold a lot of guns to a lot of different people. I couldn’t help, but, smile whenever someone asked me for my opinion of which handgun is the most comfortable to carry?
DO YOU WANT TO STAY ALIVE? THEN YOU’VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO LOOK BEYOND THE IMMEDIACY OF YOUR OWN SELFISH DESIRES! PERSONAL SAFETY, AND PERSONAL COMFORT ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS. IN FACT THE ONE IS OFTEN ANTITHETICAL TO THE OTHER.
It adds nothing to your personal safety, to walk around all day long feeling comfortable while you successfully hide a smallish, ‘gee whiz pistol’ about your person. It’s true! These little guns are, ‘all the rage’, right now, with the national gun-carrying crowd. To my mind, however, it’s one thing to be carrying a C-3, G-21, and entirely another thing, all together, to be carrying a C-1, M&P, ‘Shield’, ‘Bodyguard’; or NAA, 380 Auto, ‘Guardian’. (Remember, you are anticipating, ‘shooting for your life’!)
The latter types of, ‘secondary pistols’ may be easily concealed and seldom noticed, while the former type of, ‘primary pistol’ has to be inconveniently lugged, about, from place to place. (I ought to know because I do it all day long!) The tradeoff? That would be increased lethality, better balance in the hand, a better sight picture, and improved ease-of-use. Tough decision, isn’t it!
Carrying a gun isn’t a game. Neither is it supposed to be an open-carry, ‘cowboy’ sort of activity; nor should it be like sucking on a pacifier while rocking in mommy’s arms; and it’s never fun. (Yes, that’s right: The correct mental and emotional attitudes go along, hand-in-hand, with the correct gun!) If you’re going to carry and handle a pistol correctly, then, it requires a good deal of extra effort.
Those of us who anticipate the need to be seriously armed - Which, as America becomes progressively more and more godless, is more rather than less people - understand that EDC’ ing a substantial handgun, everyday, is not fun and never comfortable.
Perceived need is, of course, highly subjective; but, if someone doesn’t really need to carry a gun then, in this old gunman’s opinion, he’s going to be working too hard and creating, rather than absolving himself of, risk!
Neither is the reality of EDC anything like it appears to be in the movies. In the movies, ‘your safety just might be between your ears’, or (often, but not always) in an infallibly straight trigger finger; however in, ‘real time’, out in the real world, reality has a way of hitting very hard; and things can be very different. In the real world accidents actually can, and often do, happen!
My own humongous G-21 is, unquestionably, a handgun that a person can do some serious CQB pistol gunfighting with. Here, you may take me at my word: It’s C-3 condition-of-readiness is far less significant, far less important, than what’s going on, or should be going on, (Ready?) ‘between your ears’! Other, smaller, C-1, ‘gee whiz pistols’ are (what I like to call) cute little, ‘pacifier pistols’ - Good for sucking on whenever a little, ‘cowpoke’ feels insecure; but not so good for attempting to actually defend your life with.
It’s anecdote time! Remember that very busy gun shop I, once, worked in? OK, one bustling weekend afternoon 10 or 12 Latinos came sauntering in. I was standing at the far end of the counter, almost immediately next to the entry door. For whatever reasons the group decided to stop right in front of me while the young adult males, ‘mixed it up’ together. They were speaking in the abstruse, ‘mystery language’ of El Español; so, of course, never having been to someplace like Home Depot, or Lowe’s, before, I didn’t have the slightest idea what they were saying to one another.
(Not!) :laugh:
Normally, I wouldn’t have been carefully listening; but I couldn’t ignore, ‘the tude’ this group was exuding. (Ready?) These guys were discussing, ‘knocking over’ the shop! Right then! Right there! I couldn’t believe my ears! (What a bunch of clowns they must have thought we, all, looked like; and I wasn’t even wearing my Bugs Bunny wabbit costume! Imagine!)
:sarcastic:
El Jefe wasn’t so sure; but his, ‘shot caller’ was raring to go! On our side of the counter there was a retired local police sergeant, a part-time NYC police officer, the boss’s not too bright younger brother, and a Vietnam vet whom I knew slept with a tactical AR underneath the edge of his bed. There were, also, two more people in the back office; one was an always heavily-armed, former Marine.
While I was, ‘adding up the score’ I immediately knew the (very comfortable) secondary, Beretta Model 3032 in my front left pocket was already completely useless! So it was going to be the C-3, Glock Model 21 on my right hip that I’d be forced to, ‘negotiate’ with.
That gave me a total of 12 + 16 rounds in two magazines with which to offer an effective defense. (One was a standard Glock magazine that was downloaded by one round; and the other was an extended Arredondo magazine, also, downloaded by one round.) That was a heck of a lot more ammo than we used to carry in the, ‘old days’! Believe me: Big, cumbersome, difficult-to-conceal, and uncomfortable never felt so good!
As I stood there trying to appreciate the reality of what was unfolding before my eyes, my brain began to slip into, ‘reflex mode’. Various gang members began picking out their targets, and started to walk further into the store:
Three of these young men buddied up with our NYC police officer and began an animated conversation. Three more pendejos walked up to the old police sergeant. (Old, yes, but a really, ‘serious dude’ who enjoyed regaling us, at lunchtime, with exciting tales of several vicious gunfights he’d been in during his, almost, 30 years on the force!)
Both men started taking pistols out of the display cases, cleared them, and let their, ‘prospective customers’ start handling them. Two or three more of these, ‘bangers’ started the usual gun shop banter with the boss’ dimwitted brother - They were, all, about the same age; and the dummy seemed to be enjoying himself while they joked around with him! (Actually I think the, ‘bangers’ were having more fun!)
:wink:
Wow! It was a full house; and I was impressed with how really smooth and (Excuse the pun!) ‘disarming’ these fellows were! (Muy bien!) Our nostalgic Vietnam vet was tied up with a real customer; and, now, almost everyone behind the sales counter was dealing with someone who was about to pull a pistol on him and shout, something like, ‘Manos arriba, dumbass!’
Everyone, that is, except little ol’ me! Apparently, I was so harmless looking that I, somehow, managed to blend in perfectly with the carpet! (Which is, now that I think about it, EXACTLY the way you want to start any gunfight.)
Still, I was genuinely concerned, and thought about things like not having had a chance to either thank, or say goodbye to my wife. One of them had to start the fight; and I had to wait, at least, until I saw somebody’s hand move to his waistline. (Yes out in the real world, in real time, ‘verification’ is seldom a good thing!)
Then it hit me! All of a sudden I realized the group’s, ‘Achilles’ heel’: El Supremo! There he was, directly opposite me, standing less than 5 yards away! (Hell, I’d made shots like that many thousands of times before; and, with the reflex now thoroughly ingrained, I wouldn’t even need to use my pistol’s sights! All I had to do was, ‘square up the back of the slide’; and he and his compañeros were gone!)
He was the one person in that room who could stop everything from, ‘going South’ before the event kicked-off; (I know, another pun!) and it was to him that I gave my, now, undivided attention. (So I look like the carpet; do I, dumbass! OK, here comes, ‘El Piso Grande’.)
Young men are always a problem; they’ve often got more, ‘stones’ than brains, and always far too much self-confidence. As I watched his crew work the counter staff I knew, ‘it’ was about to happen. Only El Jefe, with his two chiquitas, and what I assumed to be his personal bodyguards could stop what the rest of the gang was about to do.
Short of drawing my pistol - Which would have required me to: grab, draw, charge the chamber, AND thrust the muzzle into the first of, at least, three consecutive targets, (All of which I intended to drop.) I saw no way to either warn my fellow coworkers, or stop the robbery. There simply wasn’t anything else I could do. So, away went my affable, award-winning, sales personality. (Really!) I stopped being the, ‘same color as the carpet’, and let my deep-seated and very real, Sicilian alter-ego raise up, ‘out of the box’. (This guy is so scary that he even frightens me! In fact, the less I see of him the happier I am; but genetics is, after all, genetics.)
:laugh:
As I slowly moved my right hand towards my great big G-21, which I carried, AITB, in an open-topped Kydex holster, I began staring at El Supremo - Just staring. (You know, that, ‘picking out the buttonhole kind ‘a stare’!) It was, sort of, amusing! There I was, doing my best impersonation of Alan Ladd leaning back against the bar at Grafton’s General Store, with one foot elevated against the rail, and that big, beautiful, silver, Colt SAA Cavalry Model protruding prominently from his side! (What a great movie, huh!)
Giving credit where credit is due, El Jefe was smart! I didn’t have to say a word. All I had to do was fixate him with my stare; and, voilà, hijo de perra, he understood! He immediately ordered the two, ‘bangers’ with him to leave the store; they didn’t want to go; but they did as they were told. Then, he walked down the counter and whispered something to the others who were busy engaging the boss’s brother and the NYC cop.
There was some argument, a loud protest or two, but everybody listened to him. Slowly, and not without obvious disagreement, the gang made its way back to the front of the store. Attracted by the noise the Marine came out of the office to see what was going on. He knew me well; and, when he saw that I was on the door, he seemed to relax.
On the way out the, ‘shot caller’ and two Latinas momentarily stopped to pilfer a couple of boxes of Russian 7.62 x 39mm cartridges off a display shelf. I saw it; or, at least, I saw their hands move down to the ammo shelf; and I, kind ‘a, knew what they had to be doing; but I didn’t think it wise to interfere. (They had their pride; and I thought it a small price to pay for not having things go any further!)
After they left the old sergeant came over and asked, ‘What just happened here?’ That’s when I told him I spoke their language; and the group that had just left the store was some sort of NYC street gang who, at least initially, intended to rob us. He nodded his head; and said, ‘When I was working I often wished I understood more Spanish.’ Then he looked at me and said, ‘That’s why you let them get away with the ammo?’ I answered, ‘Yes!’ He was a part owner of the store; and, as he walked away, he remarked over his shoulder, ‘Thanks!’ ‘We’re going to have to discuss how we want to handle a situation like that before it happens again.’
‘Why’ am I telling you this adorable little story? I’m telling you because, contrary to what most people like to fool themselves into believing,
TROUBLE IS NOT GOING TO COME TO THEM ON THEIR OWN, COMFORTABLE AND CONVENIENT, TERMS OF ENGAGEMENT. IT WILL BE UNEXPECTED, INCONVENIENT; AND, MORE THAN LIKELY, THOROUGHLY DISADVANTAGEOUS.
KNOW WHAT? IF TROUBLE SHOULD EVER REAR ITS UGLY HEAD IN YOUR OWN LIFE, IT WILL, ALSO, COME TO YOU IN EXACTLY THE SAME ALARMING AND UNEXPECTED WAY. ‘WHY’? PROBABLY BECAUSE IT’S THE DEVIL’S WORLD; AND THIS IS THE TRUE NATURE OF TROUBLE!
There is a very high probability that your little, C-1, ‘gee whiz pistol’ isn’t going to be enough gun! Contrary to another popular misconception, the first rule of gunfighting isn’t, ‘Have a gun!’ Instead it’s, ‘Prevail!’ ‘Prevail!’ ‘Do everything you possibly can before, during, and after the fight in order to win!’ Trouble is going to come to you on the other guy’s terms, NOT on your own; and it will usually occur, at a time and in a place, when it’s least expected.
I’m a (now retired) firearms instructor, too. I think a damned good one; and, I’ve trained some really serious people to do some really serious things with firearms. I think THIS is what your own pistol instructor is trying to get across to you. In this day and age it doesn’t really matter what condition-of-readiness your EDC pistol is in: C-0, C-1, C-2, or C-3. It doesn’t matter! What does matter is whether or not you know, ‘What’ to do, ‘When’ to do it; and, ‘How’ to skillfully employ a pistol once you make up your mind to begin using it.
Anything else is internet gun forum bull crap; and, sometimes, I really get tired of IGF bull crap. Bull crap from people who’ve never been, and never done, but still remain absolutely positive that they know all the right answers. It’s simple! All ya got ‘a do is reflect whatever the most vociferous board members are parroting; and, voilà, all of a sudden, like, you’re absolutely correct; your way is the only right way; there are no variables, no liabilities, and you’ve got plenty of company from the other, ‘geniuses’ on the board!
I watched this happen to Dr. Michael Courtney. Back in 2010 the good doctor was excoriated across a wide variety of different gun boards. Wow, did Dr. Courtney and his new ideas take abuse! All the internet tough guys were lined-up against him and his radical new ballistic theories. Time passes, it’s now 2015; and what's happened? Turns out that Dr. Courtney was right all along - Even when Dr. Martin Fackler, and (literally) 100’s of vehemently opposed and always offensive gun board members attempted to publicly flay him.
Well, well, well! There really is such a authentic phenomenon as ballistic hydrostatic shock; it’s a necessary component of all effective bullet stoppages. The greater the shock, the more likely the target is to become immediately incapacitated, and go down. Is there any bad news? Yes, there is! As things have turned out, there ain’t a heck of a lot of ballistic hydrostatic shock available from any of the popular handgun combat cartridges - Cartridges like the 9 x 19mm rounds that you are presently considering.
(No, I’m NOT telling you not to use a 9mm pistol. I, simply, want you to BE AWARE of how things are going to actually work out for ya. Whenever I carry a 9 x 19mm pistol I, also, carry twice the amount of 45 ACP or 10mm ammo that I normally carry. Neither do I, ever, fire only one 9mm round; nor have I ever trained anyone to.)
Like all CQB pistol gunfights the contest will be determined by whoever hits his target first and most effectively. Now listen carefully: The condition-of-readiness of a pistol does NOT determine who’s going to win, or who’s going to hit the target first - It does NOT! With other things, more or less, equal the contest will be decided in favor of the gunman,
WHO MOVES FIRST! (Profound, isn’t it!)
More important considerations than what condition-of-readiness your pistol is in are whether or not you TRULY know how to CQB pistol gunfight, and whether or not you’re actually able to use your handgun EFFECTIVELY against one, or more attackers?
Right now you’ve got a lot of important confrontational questions to answer, as well as any number of plausible, ‘What If’ scenarios to work out in your head. Questions like:
‘How effective does whatever gun I carry really need to be?’
‘Where should I carry it?’ (Remember, 4:30 and 7:30 are no good when you’re sitting down inside a vehicle.)
‘How should I start my draw?’
‘At what distance should I begin to draw from?’
‘How do I aim; and where do I hold?’
‘Should I, ‘grab’ the front sight; or should I simply, ‘square up’ the back of the slide?’
‘Single-tap, double-tap, triple tap, Mozambique, what?’
‘What are the most likely activities at which, and where are the most likely places, I might be successful attacked as I move throughout the day?’
‘What would I do if I were attacked on the way to my car?’ (You’re most likely to be ambushed while you’re in transit than at any other time.)
‘What would I do if I were attacked as soon as I walked through my own front door?’ (‘BTK-like killers’ are very rare! The vast majority of assailants will attack you during the first minute or two after you enter a building.)
‘Should I do a gun-in-hand, ‘room-by-room’ search as soon as I get home?’ (Many police officers do!)
‘What if there are two (or more) assailants?’
‘As I begin firing should I take one step backwards, and to my left hand side; or should I do both?’ (If your assailant is a right-handed gunman, then, that’s exactly what you should do.)
‘Should I invest in a bullet-resistant vest?’ ‘Would I even wear it if I did?’ (Most people don’t!)
Finally, ‘What is the best way to, ‘dress around the gun?’ Which is, I think, the question you’re really asking.
These are many of the really important, ‘What If’ questions and hypothetical confrontational scenarios that you should be working your way through, right now. NOT, ‘Does this gun make my ass look fat?’ or, ‘Are people going to be able to easily see it?’ There’s, also, an entire drill - a manual-at-arms, if you will - for how to move stealthily while you’re carrying a pistol, a BIG pistol! Have you learned it, yet?
* Casually Armed: Any armed civilian who has no apparent, demonstrable, or immediate need to do so is, in fact, ‘casually armed’. Furthermore, anyone who travels about in this sort of generally civil environment and believes that being in C-1 (or, with a striker-fired pistol, in C-0) is going to save himself from the immediate dire consequences of an instantaneous CQB pistol or knife ambush is - I assure you - seriously fooling himself! Outside of a church that sort of magical, 'super-physical' protection doesn't exist!
Axeanda45
Banned
Wow, what idiocy! Some of the absolute WORST advice I have ever seen..... I think someone has listened to his mallninja alter-ego for too long!
bofh
Banned
He has lost everyone a while ago, when he was constantly arguing C-3 carry.
bofh
Banned
Wrong. I can draw faster, with more control over the firearm, and protect the firearm better, when carrying it at 4-o'clock IWB while sitting inside a vehicle (instead of 10-2 o'clock for example). This has to do with body type (including seat belt position). This has been discussed before:
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/general-firearm-discussion/47855-video-drawing-handgun-vehicle.html
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/concealed-carry-handgun-gear/41494-conceal-carry-position.html
See the following video on this topic:
Wrong. Automatically stepping backwards as you begin firing means walking blindly. Your focus is on the threat and not on what's behind you. Stepping backwards without knowing where you going is for range ninjas that practice in open space. If you are attacked in a parking lot, then a car, shopping cart, or other obstruction or barrier may be behind you and you stumble or back yourself into a corner. This nonsense is right in line what this recent article points out for stepping backwards while scanning:
Self-Defense Tip: Everything You Know About Scanning Is Wrong - The Truth About Guns
As for your continuing C-3 carry advocacy. It's your life you are risking, not mine, so I am OK with you carrying C-3. I, for once, had my real-world experience where C-3 carry would have been useless.
bowserb
New member
Ask advice on an Internet forum, and you will get plenty, much of which is just repeating what someone else said on a forum. Rent some guns and get more training, from a different instructor. Some offer instruction and multiple loaner guns to try.
Ask ten concealed handgun carriers--who have carried all the time for ten years--what they carry now and what they have carried over time. That should clue you as to how scientific and precise a decision that is. I have carried for ten years, and that includes six handguns and twice that many holsters. The guns ranged from subcompact 9mm to full size .45acp, weighing from 18 to 46 ounces. I will wager that most long time concealed handgun carriers have a similar story. So get training, try some guns, but expect that your first will not be your last purchase.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Ask ten concealed handgun carriers--who have carried all the time for ten years--what they carry now and what they have carried over time. That should clue you as to how scientific and precise a decision that is. I have carried for ten years, and that includes six handguns and twice that many holsters. The guns ranged from subcompact 9mm to full size .45acp, weighing from 18 to 46 ounces. I will wager that most long time concealed handgun carriers have a similar story. So get training, try some guns, but expect that your first will not be your last purchase.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
topgun47
New member
Aw, don't believe a word of that. I've heard that she tells that to ALL the guys.
"carries his striker-fired pistol around in C-1 all day long while he’s among his: family, friends, neighbors, and coworkers. YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO THAT - IT’S JUST ONE MORE NEEDLESS RISK THAT MOST CASUALLY ARMED* PEOPLE REALLY DON’T NEED TO TAKE. (MYSELF AND, AT LEAST, A HALF-DOZEN OTHER MEN I’VE KNOWN ARE LIVING PROOF THAT WHAT I’M SAYING IS TRUE!)"
.
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Ummmm... Is it only me.... or does it sound like him and his buds have all had ND's...
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Ummmm... Is it only me.... or does it sound like him and his buds have all had ND's...
CharlesMorrison
Banned
One of my favorite aphorisms is Albert Einstein’s, ‘All knowledge (all, ‘proper understanding’)(Ed.) begins with an accurate definition of terms.’ Which is a nice way of asking: Why are you worried about hiding your EDC pistol? It’s a viable tool for self-defense - Right? The better you hide it, the tougher and slower it’s going to be for you to get to whenever you really need it, most.
Because I’m reluctant to begin an armed confrontation with any secondary-size pistol, (Like the little Beretta, ‘Alleycat’ I keep in an outside pocket.) during the wintertime I often won’t even close the front of my overcoat. When I’m sitting in a car I never pull the seatbelt over the top of a coat lapel. Why? Because that lapel has got to move, and move quick, if I should need to get to the full-size pistol that’s underneath it. None of these PERSONAL SECURITY HABITS have anything to do with hiding the pistol.
Know what? It’s entirely possible to carry a pistol and actually increase, rather than decrease, your personal risk factor(s): e.g., an armed civilian, who in expectation of that illusive, ‘pregnant moment’, carries his striker-fired pistol around in C-1 all day long while he’s among his: family, friends, neighbors, and coworkers.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO THAT - IT’S JUST ONE MORE NEEDLESS RISK THAT MOST CASUALLY ARMED* PEOPLE REALLY DON’T NEED TO TAKE. (MYSELF AND, AT LEAST, A HALF-DOZEN OTHER MEN I’VE KNOWN ARE LIVING PROOF THAT WHAT I’M SAYING IS TRUE!)
All C-1 carry does is to, partially, solve a casually armed* civilian’s own selfish desire, ‘to be safe’ while, simultaneously, placing everybody else in his day-to-day world at significant risk from his fully charged pistol. (Earlier this week a local high school had a gun accident occur when, for reasons known only to himself, some idiot security guard ND’d his Glock in a building full of schoolchildren - Schoolchildren! What, the hell, was he thinking; or, …… was he, perhaps, just being human?)
Did this exceedingly foolish fellow really NEED to be in C-1? Did he really? Of course not! He CHOSE to be in C-1! Now his name will be added to the long list of gun-toting, ‘Glockeroos’ and other, ‘cowboys’ who’ve incidentally, ‘let one go’ among the general public!
He looks bad; AND, by association, the rest of us look bad too. All because of his fantastical, marginally trained, ‘cowboy mentality’, his fully charged, C-1, striker-fired pistol, and selfish delusions of infallible personal formidability! (His safety was, of course, (Where?) ‘between his ears’; or, perhaps, ‘up his ass’, or some other such mysterious place! In any case he’s, obviously, seen, ‘Blackhawk Down’ one too many times!)
This sorry event is just one more example of the: Thick as a brick, and inconsiderate as hell mentality of those who believe, ‘If it ain’t got one in the chamber then it’s a brick'. Broadly speaking, sidearms may be divided into two general categories: (1) Those that are convenient, easy-to-hide, and comfortable to carry; and (2) others that are ideally suited for, and efficacious to use during an actual CQB pistol gunfight.
All guns, however, are always dangerous - Dangerous to everybody no matter which side of the muzzle you are on! I’ve been carrying pistols for a long time; and I’ve been using guns of all different sorts for even longer. (Like a half-century!)
As my own knowledge, understanding, and skill with handguns has increased I’ve gone way beyond the C-1, ‘instantaneous ambush’ (Glockeroo cowboy) mentality of armed, everyday, street civilians; and graduated to being more of a genuine threat to bad guys rather than a general threat to everyone in the neighborhood - including myself. (‘Why’? Because, truth be told, NONE of us is perfect; and anyone who asserts otherwise is either a fool, a liar, or both!)
Using a handgun well is an acquired skill; all handguns are, by varying degrees, inherently dangerous; and some are more difficult to employ and carry safely than others. Years ago I worked in a very busy gun shop; and I sold a lot of guns to a lot of different people. I couldn’t help, but, smile whenever someone asked me for my opinion of which handgun is the most comfortable to carry?
DO YOU WANT TO STAY ALIVE? THEN YOU’VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO LOOK BEYOND THE IMMEDIACY OF YOUR OWN SELFISH DESIRES! PERSONAL SAFETY, AND PERSONAL COMFORT ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS. IN FACT THE ONE IS OFTEN ANTITHETICAL TO THE OTHER.
It adds nothing to your personal safety, to walk around all day long feeling comfortable while you successfully hide a smallish, ‘gee whiz pistol’ about your person. It’s true! These little guns are, ‘all the rage’, right now, with the national gun-carrying crowd. To my mind, however, it’s one thing to be carrying a C-3, G-21, and entirely another thing, all together, to be carrying a C-1, M&P, ‘Shield’, ‘Bodyguard’; or NAA, 380 Auto, ‘Guardian’. (Remember, you are anticipating, ‘shooting for your life’!)
The latter types of, ‘secondary pistols’ may be easily concealed and seldom noticed, while the former type of, ‘primary pistol’ has to be inconveniently lugged, about, from place to place. (I ought to know because I do it all day long!) The tradeoff? That would be increased lethality, better balance in the hand, a better sight picture, and improved ease-of-use. Tough decision, isn’t it!
Carrying a gun isn’t a game. Neither is it supposed to be an open-carry, ‘cowboy’ sort of activity; nor should it be like sucking on a pacifier while rocking in mommy’s arms; and it’s never fun. (Yes, that’s right: The correct mental and emotional attitudes go along, hand-in-hand, with the correct gun!) If you’re going to carry and handle a pistol correctly, then, it requires a good deal of extra effort.
Those of us who anticipate the need to be seriously armed - Which, as America becomes progressively more and more godless, is more rather than less people - understand that EDC’ ing a substantial handgun, everyday, is not fun and never comfortable.
Perceived need is, of course, highly subjective; but, if someone doesn’t really need to carry a gun then, in this old gunman’s opinion, he’s going to be working too hard and creating, rather than absolving himself of, risk!
Neither is the reality of EDC anything like it appears to be in the movies. In the movies, ‘your safety just might be between your ears’, or (often, but not always) in an infallibly straight trigger finger; however in, ‘real time’, out in the real world, reality has a way of hitting very hard; and things can be very different. In the real world accidents actually can, and often do, happen!
My own humongous G-21 is, unquestionably, a handgun that a person can do some serious CQB pistol gunfighting with. Here, you may take me at my word: It’s C-3 condition-of-readiness is far less significant, far less important, than what’s going on, or should be going on, (Ready?) ‘between your ears’! Other, smaller, C-1, ‘gee whiz pistols’ are (what I like to call) cute little, ‘pacifier pistols’ - Good for sucking on whenever a little, ‘cowpoke’ feels insecure; but not so good for attempting to actually defend your life with.
It’s anecdote time! Remember that very busy gun shop I, once, worked in? OK, one bustling weekend afternoon 10 or 12 Latinos came sauntering in. I was standing at the far end of the counter, almost immediately next to the entry door. For whatever reasons the group decided to stop right in front of me while the young adult males, ‘mixed it up’ together. They were speaking in the abstruse, ‘mystery language’ of El Español; so, of course, never having been to someplace like Home Depot, or Lowe’s, before, I didn’t have the slightest idea what they were saying to one another.
(Not!) :laugh:
Normally, I wouldn’t have been carefully listening; but I couldn’t ignore, ‘the tude’ this group was exuding. (Ready?) These guys were discussing, ‘knocking over’ the shop! Right then! Right there! I couldn’t believe my ears! (What a bunch of clowns they must have thought we, all, looked like; and I wasn’t even wearing my Bugs Bunny wabbit costume! Imagine!)
:sarcastic:
El Jefe wasn’t so sure; but his, ‘shot caller’ was raring to go! On our side of the counter there was a retired local police sergeant, a part-time NYC police officer, the boss’s not too bright younger brother, and a Vietnam vet whom I knew slept with a tactical AR underneath the edge of his bed. There were, also, two more people in the back office; one was an always heavily-armed, former Marine.
While I was, ‘adding up the score’ I immediately knew the (very comfortable) secondary, Beretta Model 3032 in my front left pocket was already completely useless! So it was going to be the C-3, Glock Model 21 on my right hip that I’d be forced to, ‘negotiate’ with.
That gave me a total of 12 + 16 rounds in two magazines with which to offer an effective defense. (One was a standard Glock magazine that was downloaded by one round; and the other was an extended Arredondo magazine, also, downloaded by one round.) That was a heck of a lot more ammo than we used to carry in the, ‘old days’! Believe me: Big, cumbersome, difficult-to-conceal, and uncomfortable never felt so good!
As I stood there trying to appreciate the reality of what was unfolding before my eyes, my brain began to slip into, ‘reflex mode’. Various gang members began picking out their targets, and started to walk further into the store:
Three of these young men buddied up with our NYC police officer and began an animated conversation. Three more pendejos walked up to the old police sergeant. (Old, yes, but a really, ‘serious dude’ who enjoyed regaling us, at lunchtime, with exciting tales of several vicious gunfights he’d been in during his, almost, 30 years on the force!)
Both men started taking pistols out of the display cases, cleared them, and let their, ‘prospective customers’ start handling them. Two or three more of these, ‘bangers’ started the usual gun shop banter with the boss’ dimwitted brother - They were, all, about the same age; and the dummy seemed to be enjoying himself while they joked around with him! (Actually I think the, ‘bangers’ were having more fun!)
:wink:
Wow! It was a full house; and I was impressed with how really smooth and (Excuse the pun!) ‘disarming’ these fellows were! (Muy bien!) Our nostalgic Vietnam vet was tied up with a real customer; and, now, almost everyone behind the sales counter was dealing with someone who was about to pull a pistol on him and shout, something like, ‘Manos arriba, dumbass!’
Everyone, that is, except little ol’ me! Apparently, I was so harmless looking that I, somehow, managed to blend in perfectly with the carpet! (Which is, now that I think about it, EXACTLY the way you want to start any gunfight.)
Still, I was genuinely concerned, and thought about things like not having had a chance to either thank, or say goodbye to my wife. One of them had to start the fight; and I had to wait, at least, until I saw somebody’s hand move to his waistline. (Yes out in the real world, in real time, ‘verification’ is seldom a good thing!)
Then it hit me! All of a sudden I realized the group’s, ‘Achilles’ heel’: El Supremo! There he was, directly opposite me, standing less than 5 yards away! (Hell, I’d made shots like that many thousands of times before; and, with the reflex now thoroughly ingrained, I wouldn’t even need to use my pistol’s sights! All I had to do was, ‘square up the back of the slide’; and he and his compañeros were gone!)
He was the one person in that room who could stop everything from, ‘going South’ before the event kicked-off; (I know, another pun!) and it was to him that I gave my, now, undivided attention. (So I look like the carpet; do I, dumbass! OK, here comes, ‘El Piso Grande’.)
Young men are always a problem; they’ve often got more, ‘stones’ than brains, and always far too much self-confidence. As I watched his crew work the counter staff I knew, ‘it’ was about to happen. Only El Jefe, with his two chiquitas, and what I assumed to be his personal bodyguards could stop what the rest of the gang was about to do.
Short of drawing my pistol - Which would have required me to: grab, draw, charge the chamber, AND thrust the muzzle into the first of, at least, three consecutive targets, (All of which I intended to drop.) I saw no way to either warn my fellow coworkers, or stop the robbery. There simply wasn’t anything else I could do. So, away went my affable, award-winning, sales personality. (Really!) I stopped being the, ‘same color as the carpet’, and let my deep-seated and very real, Sicilian alter-ego raise up, ‘out of the box’. (This guy is so scary that he even frightens me! In fact, the less I see of him the happier I am; but genetics is, after all, genetics.)
:laugh:
As I slowly moved my right hand towards my great big G-21, which I carried, AITB, in an open-topped Kydex holster, I began staring at El Supremo - Just staring. (You know, that, ‘picking out the buttonhole kind ‘a stare’!) It was, sort of, amusing! There I was, doing my best impersonation of Alan Ladd leaning back against the bar at Grafton’s General Store, with one foot elevated against the rail, and that big, beautiful, silver, Colt SAA Cavalry Model protruding prominently from his side! (What a great movie, huh!)
Giving credit where credit is due, El Jefe was smart! I didn’t have to say a word. All I had to do was fixate him with my stare; and, voilà, hijo de perra, he understood! He immediately ordered the two, ‘bangers’ with him to leave the store; they didn’t want to go; but they did as they were told. Then, he walked down the counter and whispered something to the others who were busy engaging the boss’s brother and the NYC cop.
There was some argument, a loud protest or two, but everybody listened to him. Slowly, and not without obvious disagreement, the gang made its way back to the front of the store. Attracted by the noise the Marine came out of the office to see what was going on. He knew me well; and, when he saw that I was on the door, he seemed to relax.
On the way out the, ‘shot caller’ and two Latinas momentarily stopped to pilfer a couple of boxes of Russian 7.62 x 39mm cartridges off a display shelf. I saw it; or, at least, I saw their hands move down to the ammo shelf; and I, kind ‘a, knew what they had to be doing; but I didn’t think it wise to interfere. (They had their pride; and I thought it a small price to pay for not having things go any further!)
After they left the old sergeant came over and asked, ‘What just happened here?’ That’s when I told him I spoke their language; and the group that had just left the store was some sort of NYC street gang who, at least initially, intended to rob us. He nodded his head; and said, ‘When I was working I often wished I understood more Spanish.’ Then he looked at me and said, ‘That’s why you let them get away with the ammo?’ I answered, ‘Yes!’ He was a part owner of the store; and, as he walked away, he remarked over his shoulder, ‘Thanks!’ ‘We’re going to have to discuss how we want to handle a situation like that before it happens again.’
‘Why’ am I telling you this adorable little story? I’m telling you because, contrary to what most people like to fool themselves into believing,
TROUBLE IS NOT GOING TO COME TO THEM ON THEIR OWN, COMFORTABLE AND CONVENIENT, TERMS OF ENGAGEMENT. IT WILL BE UNEXPECTED, INCONVENIENT; AND, MORE THAN LIKELY, THOROUGHLY DISADVANTAGEOUS.
KNOW WHAT? IF TROUBLE SHOULD EVER REAR ITS UGLY HEAD IN YOUR OWN LIFE, IT WILL, ALSO, COME TO YOU IN EXACTLY THE SAME ALARMING AND UNEXPECTED WAY. ‘WHY’? PROBABLY BECAUSE IT’S THE DEVIL’S WORLD; AND THIS IS THE TRUE NATURE OF TROUBLE!
There is a very high probability that your little, C-1, ‘gee whiz pistol’ isn’t going to be enough gun! Contrary to another popular misconception, the first rule of gunfighting isn’t, ‘Have a gun!’ Instead it’s, ‘Prevail!’ ‘Prevail!’ ‘Do everything you possibly can before, during, and after the fight in order to win!’ Trouble is going to come to you on the other guy’s terms, NOT on your own; and it will usually occur, at a time and in a place, when it’s least expected.
I’m a (now retired) firearms instructor, too. I think a damned good one; and, I’ve trained some really serious people to do some really serious things with firearms. I think THIS is what your own pistol instructor is trying to get across to you. In this day and age it doesn’t really matter what condition-of-readiness your EDC pistol is in: C-0, C-1, C-2, or C-3. It doesn’t matter! What does matter is whether or not you know, ‘What’ to do, ‘When’ to do it; and, ‘How’ to skillfully employ a pistol once you make up your mind to begin using it.
Anything else is internet gun forum bull crap; and, sometimes, I really get tired of IGF bull crap. Bull crap from people who’ve never been, and never done, but still remain absolutely positive that they know all the right answers. It’s simple! All ya got ‘a do is reflect whatever the most vociferous board members are parroting; and, voilà, all of a sudden, like, you’re absolutely correct; your way is the only right way; there are no variables, no liabilities, and you’ve got plenty of company from the other, ‘geniuses’ on the board!
I watched this happen to Dr. Michael Courtney. Back in 2010 the good doctor was excoriated across a wide variety of different gun boards. Wow, did Dr. Courtney and his new ideas take abuse! All the internet tough guys were lined-up against him and his radical new ballistic theories. Time passes, it’s now 2015; and what's happened? Turns out that Dr. Courtney was right all along - Even when Dr. Martin Fackler, and (literally) 100’s of vehemently opposed and always offensive gun board members attempted to publicly flay him.
Well, well, well! There really is such a authentic phenomenon as ballistic hydrostatic shock; it’s a necessary component of all effective bullet stoppages. The greater the shock, the more likely the target is to become immediately incapacitated, and go down. Is there any bad news? Yes, there is! As things have turned out, there ain’t a heck of a lot of ballistic hydrostatic shock available from any of the popular handgun combat cartridges - Cartridges like the 9 x 19mm rounds that you are presently considering.
(No, I’m NOT telling you not to use a 9mm pistol. I, simply, want you to BE AWARE of how things are going to actually work out for ya. Whenever I carry a 9 x 19mm pistol I, also, carry twice the amount of 45 ACP or 10mm ammo that I normally carry. Neither do I, ever, fire only one 9mm round; nor have I ever trained anyone to.)
Like all CQB pistol gunfights the contest will be determined by whoever hits his target first and most effectively. Now listen carefully: The condition-of-readiness of a pistol does NOT determine who’s going to win, or who’s going to hit the target first - It does NOT! With other things, more or less, equal the contest will be decided in favor of the gunman,
WHO MOVES FIRST! (Profound, isn’t it!)
More important considerations than what condition-of-readiness your pistol is in are whether or not you TRULY know how to CQB pistol gunfight, and whether or not you’re actually able to use your handgun EFFECTIVELY against one, or more attackers?
Right now you’ve got a lot of important confrontational questions to answer, as well as any number of plausible, ‘What If’ scenarios to work out in your head. Questions like:
‘How effective does whatever gun I carry really need to be?’
‘Where should I carry it?’ (Remember, 4:30 and 7:30 are no good when you’re sitting down inside a vehicle.)
‘How should I start my draw?’
‘At what distance should I begin to draw from?’
‘How do I aim; and where do I hold?’
‘Should I, ‘grab’ the front sight; or should I simply, ‘square up’ the back of the slide?’
‘Single-tap, double-tap, triple tap, Mozambique, what?’
‘What are the most likely activities at which, and where are the most likely places, I might be successful attacked as I move throughout the day?’
‘What would I do if I were attacked on the way to my car?’ (You’re most likely to be ambushed while you’re in transit than at any other time.)
‘What would I do if I were attacked as soon as I walked through my own front door?’ (‘BTK-like killers’ are very rare! The vast majority of assailants will attack you during the first minute or two after you enter a building.)
‘Should I do a gun-in-hand, ‘room-by-room’ search as soon as I get home?’ (Many police officers do!)
‘What if there are two (or more) assailants?’
‘As I begin firing should I take one step backwards, and to my left hand side; or should I do both?’ (If your assailant is a right-handed gunman, then, that’s exactly what you should do.)
‘Should I invest in a bullet-resistant vest?’ ‘Would I even wear it if I did?’ (Most people don’t!)
Finally, ‘What is the best way to, ‘dress around the gun?’ Which is, I think, the question you’re really asking.
These are many of the really important, ‘What If’ questions and hypothetical confrontational scenarios that you should be working your way through, right now. NOT, ‘Does this gun make my ass look fat?’ or, ‘Are people going to be able to easily see it?’ There’s, also, an entire drill - a manual-at-arms, if you will - for how to move stealthily while you’re carrying a pistol, a BIG pistol! Have you learned it, yet?
* Casually Armed: Any armed civilian who has no apparent, demonstrable, or immediate need to do so is, in fact, ‘casually armed’. Furthermore, anyone who travels about in this sort of generally civil environment and believes that being in C-1 (or, with a striker-fired pistol, in C-0) is going to save himself from the immediate dire consequences of an instantaneous CQB pistol or knife ambush is - I assure you - seriously fooling himself! Outside of a church that sort of magical, 'super-physical' protection doesn't exist!
Link Removed
aacx22
Tested Selected Initiated
ET
Banned
Question from the OP .....What size is the right size.
lots of opinion here.
lots of considerations.
when I was younger I selected a weapon based more on my chosen attire for the day... ( thinking being, any weapon is better than no weapon ). Carrying gives you a sense of protection and a level of confidence. Feeling vulnerable in a questionable situation is not a pleasant feeling.
Now as an Old man. I carry only one weapon. I also now dress around that weapon.. meaning my choice of attire is based on how I carry My 45 ACP. Not what weapon Im going to select because of my particular attire that day.
I can conceal my Kimber Ultra carry Combat defense package.. Summer or winter... carry it in a manner that allows me to draw and fire, quickly. I pocket carry. Been doing that for many years now.. I feel it gives me an advantage over anything else I've carried in 50 years.
lots of opinion here.
lots of considerations.
when I was younger I selected a weapon based more on my chosen attire for the day... ( thinking being, any weapon is better than no weapon ). Carrying gives you a sense of protection and a level of confidence. Feeling vulnerable in a questionable situation is not a pleasant feeling.
Now as an Old man. I carry only one weapon. I also now dress around that weapon.. meaning my choice of attire is based on how I carry My 45 ACP. Not what weapon Im going to select because of my particular attire that day.
I can conceal my Kimber Ultra carry Combat defense package.. Summer or winter... carry it in a manner that allows me to draw and fire, quickly. I pocket carry. Been doing that for many years now.. I feel it gives me an advantage over anything else I've carried in 50 years.
There is a trade off in concealability and shootability. Before you buy you need to find what you can shoot and be proficient with.
For me that trade off came down to a Walther PPK/s. It fits my hand, is only an inch wide and the frame is small enough to conceal with ease. I am confident in its use and proficient at hitting my target where I am it. So that works. Sig Saur and Bersa both make a PPK/s knock-off.
For me that trade off came down to a Walther PPK/s. It fits my hand, is only an inch wide and the frame is small enough to conceal with ease. I am confident in its use and proficient at hitting my target where I am it. So that works. Sig Saur and Bersa both make a PPK/s knock-off.
ET
Banned
I carry a Kimber 45 ACP.. no bigger than a Bersa 380 thunder... The Kimber carries a big punch but not a big kick.,..I could not believe how well it shoots with out a lot of feed back.. the all alloy frame, helps... also the tight tolerances found in the slide also help... easily concealable.. summer or winter.. My Avatar, 8 rounds shot at 21 feet from this Kimber. IM 70 years old..
Carried in my left pocket in the summer.
Carried in my left pocket in the summer.
I carry a Kimber 45 ACP.. no bigger than a Bersa 380 thunder... The Kimber carries a big punch but not a big kick.,..I could not believe how well it shoots with out a lot of feed back.. the all alloy frame, helps... also the tight tolerances found in the slide also help... easily concealable.. summer or winter.. My Avatar, 8 rounds shot at 21 feet from this Kimber. IM 70 years old..
Carried in my left pocket in the summer.
Wow! That's some carry gun, I was thinking more along the 9mm size.
r1derbike
New member
Carry an XDm 9mm 4.5 in winter, and XD-S .45 in summer. No extra mag. for the XDm (19+1), and 1 7-rounder extra mag. for the XD-S (5+1).
Looks like the XD-S 9mm might be in the running, if you are into single-stacks. Same size as the XD-S .45, but a bit heavier because of extra barrel material.
Looks like the XD-S 9mm might be in the running, if you are into single-stacks. Same size as the XD-S .45, but a bit heavier because of extra barrel material.
