What if you saw a Law Enforcement Officer in Trouble?

[hogwylde]

The bottom line is I would help the LEO and take my chances but think of this scenario. What if it turns out to be a police impersonator (who had been pulling over and raping women) getting beat down by an undercover cop? Just sayin'....

 

[Seeya]

The LEO are here for our protection when we need them, Whats wrong with us helping them when They need it. Just My Opinion.

Just some info on the above.

Police have no legal duty to respond and prevent crime or protect the victim. There have BEEN OVER 10 various supreme and state court cases the individual has never won. Notably, the Supreme Court STATED about the responsibility of police for the security of your family and loved ones is "You, and only you, are responsible for your security and the security of your family and loved ones. That was the essence of a U.S. Supreme Court decision in the early 1980's when they ruled that the police do not have a duty to protect you as an individual, but to protect society as a whole."

"It is well-settled fact of American law that the police have no legal duty to protect any individual citizen from crime, even if the citizen has received death threats and the police have negligently failed to provide protection."

Sources:

7/15/05 SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES No. 04-278 TOWN OF CASTLE ROCK, COLORADO, PETITIONER v. JESSICA GONZALES, INDIVIDUALLY AND AS NEXT BEST FRIEND OF HER DECEASED MINOR CHILDREN, REBECCA GONZALES, KATHERYN GONZALES, AND LESLIE GONZALES
On June 27, in the case of Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court found that Jessica Gonzales did not have a constitutional right to individual police protection even in the presence of a restraining order. Mrs. Gonzales' husband with a track record of violence, stabbing Mrs. Gonzales to death, Mrs. Gonzales' family could not get the Supreme Court to change their unanimous decision for one's individual protection. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN FOLKS AND GOVERNMENT BODIES ARE REFUSING TO PASS THE Safety Ordinance.

(1) Richard W. Stevens. 1999. Dial 911 and Die. Hartford, Wisconsin: Mazel Freedom Press.
(2) Barillari v. City of Milwaukee, 533 N.W.2d 759 (Wis. 1995).
(3) Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982).
(4) DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 489 U.S. 189 (1989).
(5) Ford v. Town of Grafton, 693 N.E.2d 1047 (Mass. App. 1998).
(6) Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. 1981).
"...a government and its agencies are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981)

(7) "What makes the City's position particularly difficult to understand is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of NY which now denies all responsibility to her."
Riss v. New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579,293 N.Y.S.2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 806 (1958).

(8) "Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest law breakers for the protection of the general public."
Lynch v. N.C. Dept. of Justice, 376 S.E. 2nd 247 (N.C. App. 1989)

New York Times, Washington DC
Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone By LINDA GREENHOUSE Published: June 28, 2005
The ruling applies even for a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Maybe during ones situation evaluation and calling 911 you could give up the fact that you are a cc.
that would help when the law arrives, its easy to think about what we can do & how to react,but when the real thing comes around our reaction is probaly going to be different.Some day I want to have training
in using what ever force is necessary to control the situation at hand.

 

[NCIC105]

As stated before when someone joins or receives their CWP.
"Thank you for taking the steps to protect yourself and your family"

I would hope if you ever find yourself in the position to save an officer's life you would do so.

 

[FN1910]

As a friend and I were walking into a "store" one evening the screen door hit my friend in the front knocking him back into me. We gathered our wits and tried again this time making it past the screen door into the place. There were two men fighting and everyone was standing around looking. After a few minutes one got the other down on the floor, wrapped his fingers in his long greasy hair and started to pound his head into the cement. Immediately a couple of spectators stepped in breaking up the fight before someone got killed. Would you have stood back and let one kill the other. How about if the one on the floor was a cop or how about if the cop was on top. Are you an internet commando with such hatred for cops that you can't think straight but love to tell about how you would pull your gun and place a bullet exactly where you want it to. I have seen many fights broken up but never have seen anyone have to pull a gun to do it.

For me it doesn't matter that one is a LEO, just two humans and I am going to react the same way if one is a cop or not. I really am not sure what one being a cop has to do with it other than some people have some unrealistic version of what a cop is or should be. BTW - I found out this morning that my cousin died yesterday. He was a fine of a man, gentleman, father and Christian as you ever want to meet. He was also a retired deputy sheriff and I can guarantee that if you were in trouble he would help you whether you were a cop, friend, relative or stranger.

 

[stevenmetzger]

I would help the police officer of course.
Before I sprung into action I would say...officer do you need help?? Making the officer aware that I am willing to help him and that the officer not mistaken me trying to help the bad guy that is resisting arrest. I would help anyone in need because I believe that there may be a time where I would need help.

 

[applessshch]

Wow, such a variety of opinions and information. I'd like to think I'd help the LEO but it would depend on how the situation appears to me. I'd be concerned if I would end up a guest of the LEO place of business or if the BG would be able to sue me if I used say my vehicle to get between the LEO and him. I'd err more on the side of caution. Would you call 911 and say "Officer in trouble." or what? And what's the number for 911again?

 

[ohio pat]

Good Morning

And this topic comes around again. I was verbally beat up on this topic in the past in this forum.

As I continue close to my 50th year in public service and as a state and NRA certified instructor I address this topic in my ccw classes.

My spin is that a licensed ccw permit holder is authorized to use that amount of force necessary in a self defense situation. Leave this comment of mine out of the scenario if you want.

A permit holder observes a law enforcement officer in a struggle, the officer is yelling for help, we (the observers of this struggle) do not know if the officer was able to push the panic button on his/her radio and we do not even know if the police dispatcher knows about the struggle or even the location of the officer.

In the year 2012 I recommend to the class that they call 911, tell the dispatcher what is going on. The dispatcher will make the caller aware of other police units are en route or not and if so the approximate time of arrival. Meanwhile the struggle is getting worse and it looks like the bad guy is going to be successful in obtaining the officers pistol.

I suggest to my classes that it could be appropriate to tell the 911 dispatcher that they are going to help the officer and describe what they are wearing so that any responding police units know who the good ccw holder is that is helping the officer.

Whatever the amount of the use of force used by the ccw holder is a virtual unknown. None of us sworn or non sworn while acting in a civilian capacity have faced this.

If the bad guy kills the officer with his/her own firearm don't be surprised if the bad guy starts shooting at any witnesses who may be able to identify him.

This is a very complicated topic, in my humble opinion there is never a never and never an always, the answer (until we are faced with this actual scenario) is without a doubt a definite maybe.

Thanks for reading my comments

 

[applessshch]

My response would probably be to help the officer if nothing else to call 911 while blowing the horn to distract the guy/girl hoping that'd give the officer the second chance they needed. All your suggestions were good in here, including the panic button which I never knew existed, while staying as safe as possible so I don't make the situation even more complicated. I would shoot if I believed it necessary to save a valuable life. I have a great deal of respect for LEO even if I have a difference of opinion over my speed and seatbelt use. LOL. Thank you for such an insightful thread.

 

[ohio pat]

Good Morning

And this topic comes around again. I was verbally beat up on this topic in the past in this forum.

As I continue close to my 50th year in public service and as a state and NRA certified instructor I address this topic in my ccw classes.

My spin is that a licensed ccw permit holder is authorized to use that amount of force necessary in a self defense situation. Leave this comment of mine out of the scenario if you want.

A permit holder observes a law enforcement officer in a struggle, the officer is yelling for help, we (the observers of this struggle) do not know if the officer was able to push the panic button on his/her radio and we do not even know if the police dispatcher knows about the struggle or even the location of the officer.

In the year 2012 I recommend to the class that they call 911, tell the dispatcher what is going on. The dispatcher will make the caller aware of other police units are en route or not and if so the approximate time of arrival. Meanwhile the struggle is getting worse and it looks like the bad guy is going to be successful in obtaining the officers pistol.

I suggest to my classes that it could be appropriate to tell the 911 dispatcher that they are going to help the officer and describe what they are wearing so that any responding police units know who the good ccw holder is that is helping the officer.

Whatever the amount of the use of force used by the ccw holder is a virtual unknown. None of us sworn or non sworn while acting in a civilian capacity have faced this.

If the bad guy kills the officer with his/her own firearm don't be surprised if the bad guy starts shooting at any witnesses who may be able to identify him.

This is a very complicated topic, in my humble opinion there is never a never and never an always, the answer (until we are faced with this actual scenario) is without a doubt a definite maybe.

Thanks for reading my comments

 

[ocalacarry]

very well said sir, but did you need to post it twice?

 

[384540]

Amen brother and God Bless

 

[applessshch]

Um, finger twitch? I've done it more than once myself.

 

[rdc2co]

I'll agree with Pat. It's a very complicated topic. On one side, in a bad situation, I would want a citizen to assist me, whether I could verbalize that, or not. My radio does NOT have a panic button (they're too old for that). I may/may not be able to call in a distress call. Then what? I think from that point, I would testify in favor of the citizen and hope for the best for him/her.
As a citizen, I would be compelled to act under Colorado law IF REQUESTED, however if the officer is not able to verbalize this, or already incapacitated, I might be inclined to intervene and hope the officer backs me up, as above.
CRS 16-3-202. Assisting peace officer - arrest - furnishing information - immunity.
It's a hairy situation, at best, but realistically a very nasty predicament. I might call it a 'lesser of the evils' case, or assume the officer has requested assistance.
18-1-702. Choice of evils.
From a technical aspect, I'd be worried that the bullet might miss the attacker and hit the officer accidentally (assuming the officer has been grounded and there is a lot of rolling around on the ground). Moving targets are hard to get a bead on. What if the attacker has a partner(s)? There's another complication, too. What if there is a gang attack on a single officer? He won't stand a chance.
Colorado law also allows the defense of self AND/OR third party, if that third party is in jeopardy of death. Each state has a different set of laws, and Ohio seems to be pretty much against a citizen, even in this situation.
CRS 18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person.
Anything I say here is NOT LEGAL ADVICE, but merely discussion. I'm not an attorney.
Pat has a lot of very valid points. For everyone, I would suggest to ask an attorney for advice, as Pat seems to have done. Pat, you are LEO, I'm assuming? To everyone else, I might also sometime ask a Police Officer/Deputy about his/her opinions, and where to go for clarification. The State of Florida has (or used to have) a plain-language flier describing what a CCW can/cannot and should/should not do with a CCW (CHL, etc). Ideally, all 50 states should have a flier like this, including this topic. Do you agree, Pat? Do you have any other suggestions or "words of wisdom" for regular citizens?