What If LEO Wants My Weapon During Traffic Stop?!

His whole post was predicated on the following:



Throughout the thread, the brain-fart notion that it's somehow safer for the LEO if you inform them of your armed status even if you have no legal obligation to do so has been repeated. My post used that poster's post as a launching-point to counter that kind of submissive, irrational and hoplophobic advice.

And just for the record, this is the Concealed Carry Discussion sub-forum. I realize the advice may come from some with the intention of relating only to Illinois laws, but if you want threads to remain about a specific state's laws, post in that specific state's sub-forum, or limit your comments here to only that specific state. Quiet Observer did not limit, he stated in general terms that which I vehemently disagree with. At least Navy, Deanimator and I, and probably others that I'm not remembering, have made it clear that in our states, there is no duty to inform, and in my state at least, only a duty to answer honestly if asked. This is one case where "Don't ask, don't tell" works well the overwhelming majority of the time for both parties.

Blues

Hate to break this too you, dumb ass I never posted that. Never, not once ever. Get your facts and quotes right because you like a ******* right now.
 

I play devils advocate quite often and I do tend to agree with you in a sense, but I also, not knowing the mental state of the officer in presence, would rather notify them of my firearm and let them make the decision, be it a courteous or inconciderate one, than the officer in an I'll mental state see my pistol and me be at the business end of their firearm.

To each their own...

There are many, many more examples of officers "going nuts" after they have been informed by the person stopped of the presence of a firearm than if the officer sees the gun sometime later during the stop. Prime example - Officer Daniel Harless in Canton, Ohio. There are no absolutes in life. But history indicates the odds are greater of seeing the business end of the officer's firearm by informing them of the presence of the gun than it is by acting normal, courteous and professional during the stop and keeping my mouth shut about my CPL and firearm. I won't play the game of protecting myself against remote possibilities when there are greater odds of being protected by an alternate course of action.

Back to the OP's original question of surrendering the firearm... I won't voluntarily provide the officer with an excuse to ask me to surrender my gun by telling them about it. But if they ask about a firearm (and, so far, no officer has ever asked), I will answer. If they want to take my gun I will make it verbally clear that I do not consent, but I will not resist. Then I will file a FOIA request to determine if they have detained me longer than necessary to issue the traffic citation by calling in the serial number of my gun which is an action that has absolutely no reasonable suspicion behind it. If I find out they have detained me to run a check on the serial number of my gun then I will file an action against them in court for unlawful detainment in violation of RCW 46.64.015 which states that they can only detain me long enough to issue the traffic citation.

You might consider this as being:

rebellious against authority(police) trying to find a sence of power above them through legal methods. ... dealing with ******** who feel a need to assert their superiority over you rather than help you make your job easier?

I consider it as exercising my responsibility as a citizen to ensure that the public servants also remain within the bounds of law just as they are expecting us to.
 
His whole post was predicated on the following:

The cop has the same right of self-protection as you. Have drivers license and CCL out when the LEO approaches. Let the LEO decide on what to do.



Throughout the thread, the brain-fart notion that it's somehow safer for the LEO if you inform them of your armed status even if you have no legal obligation to do so has been repeated. My post used that poster's post as a launching-point to counter that kind of submissive, irrational and hoplophobic advice.

And just for the record, this is the Concealed Carry Discussion sub-forum. I realize the advice may come from some with the intention of relating only to Illinois laws, but if you want threads to remain about a specific state's laws, post in that specific state's sub-forum, or limit your comments here to only that specific state. Quiet Observer did not limit, he stated in general terms that which I vehemently disagree with.

Blues

Alrighty then smart ass show me where I said any such thing. Also I would love for you to show me where I said to notify. Basically you are a dumbass that attacks the wrong people. You are so quick to argue and wiggle your little weenie around to act like a big man you don't even know who you are quoting or posting about. How pathetic.

In illinois the ISP has provided training for local PDs regarding traffic shops with CCLs. The training and suggestions are that things are best if everyone's guns stay in their holster.

That being said, if your gun is loose in the car, they may take possession of it. You may encounter that one cop that thinks he needs to take control of it.

If this should happen let them take the weapon the side of the road isn't a place to have an argument with a cop over a loaded firearm. Save that for the courtroom if required.

This is a very slim chance of occurring though.


You are right about all those things. However, as I said above, the side if the road is no place to argue about a loaded firearm with an LEO.


The OP lives in IL, here in IL the CCL is attached to a persons name in the LEADS system. If they run your DL or the plate of a vehicle registered to you it will come back with a CCL.

That's great, but for the OP it was a correct comment, so you didn't fix anything.


Then what exactly is your point? That you could be a horses ass and find yourself in jail, but you would be right? Guess what, you're still in jail. Right or wrong doesn't matter when your ass is in jail.


Then you are simply arguing semantics, which makes this conversation worthless.

I see this is still going further down the drain.


Yeah, the chest thumping that occurs on gun boards gets ridiculous. Most of the guys preaching how they would do this or that will politely call the cop sir and comply when not behind the keyboard.

It's just like the SHTF conversation when people bring up confiscation of firearms. 90% on a gun board say they would fight to the death. In reality 90% or more would probably hand them right over.

And that's the best way. Too many people pretend to be tough guys, if are plain stupid and want to videotape themselves being stupid.

I agree that you never admit guilt and always object to something you disagree with. Of course, objecting to something and creating a scene or possible physical altercation on the side of the road are two different things. An intelligent person realizes that there are courtrooms for a reason.


Oh I'm sorry, did you say something? The adults were busy in conversation.


Do you even know what I said? I never said I agreed with the concept or reasoning behind them taking control of the weapon.

What I said is that the side of the road is no place to argue with a cop over a loaded weapon. Argue your rights in a court room where you MIGHT win. I guarantee you will not win arguing on the side of the road.

Hate to break this too you, dumb ass I never posted that. Never, not once ever. Get your facts and quotes right because you like a ******* right now.

There you go every post I made in this thread. Point it out.
 
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"Wrong. Federal courts have declared and upheld that law enforcement officers have no duty to protect individuals. This is from Police Chief magazine, a law enforcement professional publication:"

This thread is about the legal requirements and prudent actions, if a police officer asks you to turn over your weapon during a traffic stop. It is not about whether the state has an obligation to protect an individual. The article “No Duty to Protect: Two Exceptions” that you cite mentions numerous cases in which various federal circuit courts found no duty to protect existed, and many others in which a duty to protect did exist. I will not mention any here since they do not fall within the scope of this thread.
 
This thread is about the legal requirements and prudent actions, if a police officer asks you to turn over your weapon during a traffic stop. It is not about whether the state has an obligation to protect an individual.

Excuse me, officer, but I am going to need to see a thread police badge.

I will not mention any here since they do not fall within the scope of this thread.

You already did mention them in an attempt to disprove my statement "outside the scope of this thread". The pot appears to be calling the kettle black... or is that a racist statement these days?
 
Agreed, the letter of the law in Illinois is that you do not have to declare; only inform if directly asked by the LEO. The mindset of most everyone I talk to though, is to hand over the CCL along with the driver's license. Not sure what way to go on that myself. And yes, I would follow the officer's directions explicitly. I too, am not aware of any jurisdiction where you can refuse to surrender your weapon (being forcefully disarmed certainly would not be a pleasant situation!).

Since this discussion is all over the place, let me actually comment on a comment by the OP. In my state, Tennessee, we do not have to inform the officer upon initial contact, only if he/she asks. Since the state of Tennessee recently enacted a law that allows one to carry in a privately owned vehicle without a Handgun Carry Permit, this makes preemptively informing the officer about your permit quite nonsensical. Also, in Tennessee, the driver license number is the same as the Handgun Carry Permit number.

In general, if the law does not require to inform the officer upon initial contact it is simpler not to do so. Only if the officer asks you to step out of the vehicle, you should inform the officer for your own safety by saying: "Officer, I have a Carry Permit and I am carrying my firearm today. Let me know how to proceed." All of this assuming that the firearm is concealed from the officer. If the officer sees the firearm, he/she will initiate the conversation anyway. If you are afraid of officers going nuts when they see your firearm, then get an always-on minicam installed in the car, because informing the officer will not fix his/her fear of non-LEOs carrying firearms.

In any case, keep your hands where the officer can see them and inform the officer about what, if anything, you are doing with your hands. Before the officer even approaches your car, put your driver license, carry permit, car registration, and proof of insurance where they are easily accessible, such as a shirt pocket. Nothing makes a police officer more nervous than a driver going through his/her pockets to find this stuff.
 
Hate to break this too you, dumb ass I never posted that. Never, not once ever. Get your facts and quotes right because you like a ******* right now.

In the post you're replying to, I was replying to Eidolon. In the post of mine he was replying to beforehand, I was replying to Quiet Observer. The post you quote above was not in reply to you at all. Try to follow the quotes and maybe you'll understand what's being said. In this case, you didn't.

Blues

Edited To Add: I purposely didn't quote your second bite at the apple to show your ass. If you'd like to look a tad bit less stupid, you can still delete or edit it. The one I did quote is enough name-calling to preserve for posterity.
 
WOW, to the point of this thread - any officer that wants a gun brought into the open during a traffic stop is seriously lacking in common sense.
 
If you have a smart phone get the recorder app. When pulled over just start the recorder before he walks up to the car. State the date and time. Put the phone along the door where he can't see it. Never tell him about it, even after arrested. My wife did it on the eve of Hurricane Irene when she was hassled for parking crooked. The cop thought she was drunk. That recording caught him telling her the law required she tell him of medications she takes. WRONG! I was proud of her. She answered, "The law requires I tell you what medications I take? Not unless I woke-up in Moscow this morning."
.
Let the PD learn of the recording during discovery when you sue the department.
 
If you have a smart phone get the recorder app. When pulled over just start the recorder before he walks up to the car. State the date and time. Put the phone along the door where he can't see it. Never tell him about it, even after arrested. My wife did it on the eve of Hurricane Irene when she was hassled for parking crooked. The cop thought she was drunk. That recording caught him telling her the law required she tell him of medications she takes. WRONG! I was proud of her. She answered, "The law requires I tell you what medications I take? Not unless I woke-up in Moscow this morning."
.
Let the PD learn of the recording during discovery when you sue the department.

Almost every smart phone I have ever owned came with a recording app all ready on it...

What's to stop them from deleting the file though? I couldn't get the dash can video from my last traffic ticket in 2006 for 5 months, and even then all the audio from the front camera was missing.

Does anyone know of a recorder that saved files to the cloud, or doesn't allow deletion without a password?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
 
Almost every smart phone I have ever owned came with a recording app all ready on it...

What's to stop them from deleting the file though? I couldn't get the dash can video from my last traffic ticket in 2006 for 5 months, and even then all the audio from the front camera was missing.

Does anyone know of a recorder that saved files to the cloud, or doesn't allow deletion without a password?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
There are two apps specifically for recording police. The American Civil Liberties Union of New Jersey has released an Android app designed to be used by people who want to secretly record police activity without running the risk that the mobile device will be seized. Called Police Tape, the free app allows the user to record video and audio discreetly. For one thing, the app disappears from a phone's screen when the recording begins. For another, it can send a copy of the recording to the ACLU-New Jersey for backup storage and analysis of potential civil liberties violations. It is similar to the Stop and Frisk Watch app for Android released last month by the New York Civil Liberties Union, which stops filming when the device is shaken and alerts people when other app users in the area are recording police activity. Both apps also provide legal information about citizens' rights when dealing with police.
.
You can get more info on using these apps here --> ACLU app lets Android users secretly tape the police - CNET
 
Almost every smart phone I have ever owned came with a recording app all ready on it...

What's to stop them from deleting the file though? I couldn't get the dash can video from my last traffic ticket in 2006 for 5 months, and even then all the audio from the front camera was missing.

Does anyone know of a recorder that saved files to the cloud, or doesn't allow deletion without a password?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

If you have an iPhone, the video recording can be started from the locked screen. You also can take eyewitness photos that way. The phone remains locked.

Also, photos and videos can be automatically uploaded to Apple's iCloud. I did disable this over a year ago as it was buggy (like so many other things with the iCloud). I may try this out again. iCloud is supposed to maintain its own copy, i.e., if you delete it on the phone, the Cloud copy will remain.

Dropbox is an alternative that is supposed to work on iOS and Android with its Camera Upload feature.
 
If you have an iPhone, the video recording can be started from the locked screen. You also can take eyewitness photos that way. The phone remains locked.

Also, photos and videos can be automatically uploaded to Apple's iCloud. I did disable this over a year ago as it was buggy (like so many other things with the iCloud). I may try this out again. iCloud is supposed to maintain its own copy, i.e., if you delete it on the phone, the Cloud copy will remain.

Dropbox is an alternative that is supposed to work on iOS and Android with its Camera Upload feature.

I have drop box...but it's far to easy to delete files from a drop box account once they get access to it. Maybe the file remains in a place that drop box can recover? I'll have to email them and ask.

There are two apps specifically for recording police. The American Civil Liberties Union of New Jersey has released an Android app designed to be used by people who want to secretly record police activity without running the risk that the mobile device will be seized. Called Police Tape, the free app allows the user to record video and audio discreetly. For one thing, the app disappears from a phone's screen when the recording begins. For another, it can send a copy of the recording to the ACLU-New Jersey for backup storage and analysis of potential civil liberties violations. It is similar to the Stop and Frisk Watch app for Android released last month by the New York Civil Liberties Union, which stops filming when the device is shaken and alerts people when other app users in the area are recording police activity. Both apps also provide legal information about citizens' rights when dealing with police.
.
You can get more info on using these apps here --> ACLU app lets Android users secretly tape the police - CNET

Unfortunately it only took 30 seconds to find the recording on my phone. If they confiscate my phone during the detention and get a warrant for the password, they can delete the file before it uploads. I will test this to see of the recording is saved if the battery dies too...as both recording camera and voice recorder do not save when the battery dies...which it probably will if I am being detained.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
 
Almost every smart phone I have ever owned came with a recording app all ready on it...

What's to stop them from deleting the file though? I couldn't get the dash can video from my last traffic ticket in 2006 for 5 months, and even then all the audio from the front camera was missing.

Does anyone know of a recorder that saved files to the cloud, or doesn't allow deletion without a password?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

Link Removed. That's what I've got installed on my Android phone. Haven't had occasion to use it beyond just testing and familiarizing myself with it (it's very basic, not much learning curve), but I do practice launching it and broadcasting to the web whenever something insignificant happens, like a knock at the door, or the dog starts barking, or I see a cop in my mirror, whatever. You have to physically launch it, no voice commands available (unless I've missed an update), so I practice it being the first thing I do on a moment's notice lest I forget when I'm getting my DL and registration together or somehow otherwise out of my normal rhythm.

Anyway, here's a good page on several different broadcasting recording apps. Bambuser is at the top of their list, but they give all the pros and cons of all the apps they're recommending in pretty concise Cliff-Notes style. You should be able to find something useful there.

Blues
 
Cops aren't inherently bad guys. Most are exactly the opposite and we need them individually and as a society.

Right-wing anti-government patriot-anarchists are definitely not inherently good guys.

Common courtesy (real, not self-servingly feigned) isn't dead out there, and it isn't "submissive" to just be courteous. (But apparently it doesn't fit the tough-talking macho image many here want to paint of themselves).

Too many sheeple can't tell the difference between submission and courtesy. Apparently some can't tell the difference between courtesy without submission and being a "tough guy"...usually painting themselves as some holier than thou elitist.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
 
Cops aren't inherently bad guys.
Cops are inherently dangerous.

That danger can switch from the potential to the actual in an instant.


Most are exactly the opposite and we need them individually and as a society.
Really? Have you done a survey? Collected statistics?

Right-wing anti-government "patriot"-anarchists are definitely not inherently good guys.
Neither are those who fawn over any government use of power, no matter how abusive.
 
Almost every smart phone I have ever owned came with a recording app all ready on it...

What's to stop them from deleting the file though? I couldn't get the dash can video from my last traffic ticket in 2006 for 5 months, and even then all the audio from the front camera was missing.

Does anyone know of a recorder that saved files to the cloud, or doesn't allow deletion without a password?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

Password protect your phone
 
Too many sheeple can't tell the difference between submission and courtesy. Apparently some can't tell the difference between courtesy without submission and being a "tough guy"...usually painting themselves as some holier than thou elitist.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
One way to find out is tell him he smells like coffee and doughnuts. If he laughs he's a good guy. If you wake-up in the back of the cop car he wasn't. :jester:
 
Password protect your phone

Here's a few problems password protecting, won't help:

1. Warrants can bypass passwords, and are given out like candy on Halloween.

2. A recorder running in the background, and if streaming online, will eat battery extremely fast. If unable to turn the recording off, the file will be lost.

3. No recorder I have found will save the file if the battery dies, or gets pulled, during recording.

These new apps seems to bring some of the issues I had a few years ago with automatically uploading. But there are still issues at hand...it seems Apple is the closest by allowing recordings from the lock screen, and uploading to the cloud. Wonder what if the bugs will be addressed.

For what it's worth, I do password protect my phone.
 

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