What if from Hell...

[ClearSightTactical]

Pay attention. I said if it goes beyond robbery. Some bg's want no witnesses.
Not trying to convince you that YOU should help, just that I would. Just the way I was brought up.

Steve, I'm not trying to be a jerk or pick on ya

Are you new to CCW? If so, please take a step back and look around at the vast majority of responses.

If not, please take a step back and look at the vast majority of responses.

When you strap on a gun its easy to get superman syndrome- here is some advice. DON'T.

You are not an LEO (I don't think) and as a private citizen you generally have no power of arrest other than a citizens arrest. You likely don't carry handcuffs, and you don't have 30+ linebacker type a guys that will be driving 100+mph to help you, and if you're hurt they wont break down the gates of hell to get to you like they would for LEO...

I hope you're never put in this type of situation, but if you are try to think rationally with your brain, and not with your ego or superman syndrome...

 

[JJFlash]

Hmmm...things here locally just got real interesting for awhile. Seems we had something like 10 armed robberies in town and several surrounding communities in the last 2 weeks. Pretty much unheard of around here. LEO finally did arrest somebody but what was interesting before they did were the statements of LEO and some store owners who said, basically, "this guy is gonna run into somebody who is armed and then...".

So, it seems like a lot of folks were expecting that some armed civilian was gonna take this guy out. For sure, many of us were on "high alert" during this time. An eery feeling...

 

[ClearSightTactical]

Hmmm...things here locally just got real interesting for awhile. Seems we had something like 10 armed robberies in town and several surrounding communities in the last 2 weeks. Pretty much unheard of around here. LEO finally did arrest somebody but what was interesting before they did were the statements of LEO and some store owners who said, basically, "this guy is gonna run into somebody who is armed and then...".

So, it seems like a lot of folks were expecting that some armed civilian was gonna take this guy out. For sure, many of us were on "high alert" during this time. An eery feeling...

10 robberies? and people are excited? here that's about 3 days worth of work :-D lol you're a lucky guy- I can't wait to get the Hell outta here.
Albuquerque Crime stats 2007 most recent published and complete. This is for the year...

crime type reported in 2007 averaged per day
AGG ASLT: 3,220 8.8
Burglary 5,722 15.6
Homicide 50 0.13
Kidnapping 477 1.3
Vehicle Thefts 5,429 14.87
Robbery 1,450 3.97

 

[JJFlash]

Turns out the guy was using a pellet pistol. How stupid is that?! Well, the criminal mind is typically lacking, that's for sure...

 

[ggtgary]

<<< "Empty my mag on him" >>>

You walking into the middle of something, you weren't there at the start. You don't know who is who. It could be a undercover cop making a bust. Maybe another CCW holder holding a robber at gunpoint. Probably is a robbery but you don't know for sure. Geez (I am one of Patti's students)

"There are three types of men. Some learn by reading, a few learn by observation, and the rest have to piss on the electric fence to find out for themselves." --- Will Rogers

 

[SteveB]

Sorry, I didn't see this post until now. :-D

I have no duty nor responsibility, nor expectation to protect you or anyone else for that matter.

If you feel that you should risk your freedom and financial future for a stranger - more power to you. Expect to be labeled a vigilante, a cowboy, quick draw (insert your name), etc. Expect a public outcry for your punishment (as well as release..)

Self defense is indeed a personal responsibility. It is not the duty of the Police to protect you. See Warren v. District of Columbia it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen."

I will go ahead with my plan Cowboy (see it started already). When you get arrested & charged i'll be sure to write to the jurisdiction demanding your release- and donate to your legal fund. (I'm not being sarcastic).

As far as not having the means to be armed or fight off a bad guy they should demand the Castle doctrine, and immunity from criminal and civil prosecution for an armed citizen stopping a bad guy to their legislators...that is how they can help fight back. Again, until the law stops favoring the criminal we have no choice but to be a witness.

Again, I said if it goes beyond robbery. Some bg's want no witnesses.
Not trying to convince you that YOU should help, just that I would.

 

[iamtheuglyamerican]

All of this is pretty interesting, but really besides just considering your moral duty, probably would be a good idea to know the laws in you respective state. Here in AR, we have a must retreat clause, BUT if your or anyone elses life is in jeapordy you're (supposedly) protected from prosecution. After investigation of course, and while you would think that anyone that you rescued from a thug with a knife or gun to their throat would be grateful, you may be suprised. If they happen to be a pacifist or anti-gun, they MAY just claim that they weren't in any real danger. Thus leaving you open for at least a civil suit, and possibly a manslaughter charge or worse. Nowdays you just never know, and that would really suck for to be a real hero and get screwed over by the very person you helped.

 

[kelcarry]

Per Iamtheuglyamerican, regardless of a situation, you had better know your state's laws, rules and regs when it comes to deciding to present your firearm. In SC, for example, we have an "alter ego" rule that allows a CC person to intervene in someone else's defense if you believe that if you were that "someone", you would be facing imminent bodily harm or death. The real problem with the rule, as others have said, is that you do not know what is really going on---who is the bad guy?--who is the good guy?--it could be 180 degrees from what you see. You have an obligation to yourself and your family and an obligation to call 911 for others--anything more than that, however brave, is intervening into something that can get you into a heep of trouble and possibly involve you in a confrontation leading to your death, or others who are not the bad guys. Difficult decisions but that is what you took on when you applied for and received a CCWP and carry a CCW.

 

[Unfettered Might]

The state of Kentucky, where I'm from, has something called the Choice of Evils defense.

It is only usable for a non violent outcome. Basically it protects you if you draw on someone to prevent a greater crime from occurring than the brandishing of the firearm.

Then there is Justifiable Homicide, which under law automatically protects you from criminal and civil liability. In fact, unless the responding LEOs have articulable reason to disbelieve you, you cannot even be arrested. If they don't believe you and you are arrested, you claim that defense with the burden of proof on you.

Then there is Castle Doctrine, which means if someone forces their way into my home or vehicle and I am in either when it happens, they are fair game. It is automatically assumed that someone is there to commit grave bodily injury or death under those conditions. Under these conditions the burden of proof is actually on the prosecutor.

Other crimes other than deadly force that immediate deadly force can be used for are arson, rape, kidnapping and coercion to commit a felony under the threat of deadly force.

No license or permits needed to open carry
No gun registration
We don't screw around here......

A friend of mine put it best when he said we are one of the last Wyatt Earp states, lol.

In the OP originally proposed question, would I go in and do something? No, I have two little children that depend on me. However, if I had no children to be concerned over then I would be the first in there.

 

[6shootercarry]

Hmmm...things here locally just got real interesting for awhile. Seems we had something like 10 armed robberies in town and several surrounding communities in the last 2 weeks. Pretty much unheard of around here. LEO finally did arrest somebody but what was interesting before they did were the statements of LEO and some store owners who said, basically, "this guy is gonna run into somebody who is armed and then...".

So, it seems like a lot of folks were expecting that some armed civilian was gonna take this guy out. For sure, many of us were on "high alert" during this time. An eery feeling...

Now, if I'm in the store and the guy comes in and pulls the gun out and begins to point it at the clerk, others in the store, or me, well I'll be taking a step back and drawing while checking the target area to make sure it's clear to fire. If clear, BANG BANG...

If the BG has it out and it's being pointed at me or others I'll consider that a threat as I'm sure most here would.
I think that's the message that was being sent with regards to running into somebody who is armed. I like that.

Here in MA that would never be said. If said that would acknowledge the fact that people other than police officers carry guns. That’s too scary a thought for the left wing on the right side of the country. Yea…no one else needs them…

If I looked in the window of the store and noted the robbery was in progress, well... I'd be the witness, call police and keep out of the store.

He was lucky. Using a pellet gun... Absolute Dumb A$$...

 

[lplettie]

Sticking with the original scenario:

As you are walking in to your favorite local grocery store you notice an armed robbery taking place inside as you are crossing the parking lot. Do you run away and take cover behind a dumpster, pole etc.? Do you proceed in and try to break things up? or...Do you just clothesline the guy as he comes out the door and hope for the best?

Have you called 911? Are you justified in your actions? after all you ain't inside yet? Are you in immediate danger? When the cops come who is going to be the one on the ground in cuffs? Are you going to act like a vigilante or a solid citizen?

and allowing for one reasonable adjustment to the above scenario:

Changing the scenario slightly, if I am in the store and BG pulls a weapon, if I gotta a chance to get the drop on him, with clear LOS, I'll take it. I'm trained heavily in defensive tactics, can pretty much hit what I am aiming at and am wicked fast on the draw (no brag, just fact). Sometimes you just gotta DO, and damn the legal consequences. In the end, I face the Ultimate Judge and that's all I'm worried about.

From outside the store I see people pointing guns... at or in the vicinity of the store employee. I surmise a robbery is in progress and there is the possibility someone is going to get hurt or killed. I could very easily mistake the rescuer as one of the BG. I may be taking out the one person who has the best shot of terminating this situation with a relatively happy ending. In doing so I've jeopardized everyone in the store, possibly killed a GG and rendered his family defenseless and opened myself to litigation even from the GG... the one I mistook for a BG.

I've tried to consider this from every angle. Sometimes I wear work clothes when I'm out and about... sometimes I need haircut and a shave. What I'm getting at is that I could easily be mistaken for a scumbag. I could easily be the GG getting gunned down by the uninformed GG.

It's at least worth considering. I'm going to have to be one of the guys dialing 911 and seeing what happens. Before considering this scenario, had I been in a good position inside the store during the robbery I probably would have attempted to defend those endangered... but after considering all the ramifications I've become a bit more passive. I'm not drawing a weapon and going up against:

1. The BG(s)
2. The police, arriving on the scene, who really don't know any more than I do who is who
3. A good, solid citizen, uninformed GG who can easily mistake me for a BG.

I have responsibilities and those responsibilities dictate that I be more conservative than I would maybe like. Call me whatever you want... it's all the same to me. I will possibly reconsider when someone steps up and says that they will care for and provide for and defend my family while I'm either dead or in prison for being a GG. Until then... me and mine come first. My idealism ended sometime back in the '70s.

 

[kelcarry]

hey lplettie: You are absolutely correct in your last reply. The situation is easy to comment on when you sit at a computer; in reality it is chaos of the first kind. No one knows who is what and what is what and to interject yourself, even if your state has an alter ego rule, such as my SC, you are asking for more problems particularly since you have now added a firearm into the equation. Unless it is you and your family and as much as you want to assist in some way, today's society has made it absurd to even think that you can provide 100% certainty that your assistance will be helpful and not aggravate a bad situation or even, god forbid, get someone or yourself killed. Just too many ifs.