What if from Hell...

[JJFlash]

You are defending you! Stay in the damn parking lot, be a good witness and defend your own life if you have to. A jackass with a drawn gun is not the time for bravado.

Being a good witness...you should be able to tell dress, height , car, plate, ethnicitity, number of BG's and direction of travel.

You should not go in the damn store and become part of the problem. You should not engage the BG's unless they engage you.

Your place is outside...remember you have not gone in yet. You know what is going on only because you don't have your head up your butt.

Calling 911 is your #1 priority

I hear what you're saying, Festus, and I agree it's probably the way to go. However, as I think on this more... that cute little blond co-ed is someone's daughter and I'm not sure I could just stand by and wait to see if she gets her face blown off. Don't misunderstand, I'm NOT a hero and I'm NOT looking for kudos. I'm just not sure if I could live with myself if I had a chance to save her and I didn't take it. I would kiss the feet of someone who saved my kid's life...

Just me.

 

[HK4U]

I hear what you're saying, Festus, and I agree it's probably the way to go. However, as I think on this more... that cute little blond co-ed is someone's daughter and I'm not sure I could just stand by and wait to see if she gets her face blown off. Don't misunderstand, I'm NOT a hero and I'm NOT looking for kudos. I'm just not sure if I could live with myself if I had a chance to save her and I didn't take it. I would kiss the feet of someone who saved my kid's life...

Just me.

JJ that is why I said if the BG starts killing then if I can do something I probably would. As long as it is just a robbery and no shooting I do not want to so something to escalate the situation. By doing that I may be the one that causes that "little girl" to be killed.

 

[JJFlash]

JJ that is why I said if the BG starts killing then if I can do something I probably would. As long as it is just a robbery and no shooting I do not want to so something to escalate the situation. By doing that I may be the one that causes that "little girl" to be killed.

Well, ya'll are right on, at least according to an LEO friend of mine to whom I presented this "what if" today. He said there's way too much possible legal fallout from making a "pre-emptive" move against the BG in this situation. He specifically brought up your point, HK, that a move on my part might cause the "little girl" to be shot. As noted, if the BG starts shooting or executing people, then the situation changes.

This is a tough one for me as we had a young co-ed abducted and killed several years ago by some sexual pervert who had just been let loose. I and others spent time combing the snow-filled ditches looking for her or other clues to her whereabouts. Her body was finally found after snow-melt in the spring. She was young, beautiful, hard-working and I cried about it more than once. Since then, I have been haunted about this kind of crap. Thus, my rather tortured response to this "what if". Damn.

 

[HK4U]

Well, ya'll are right on, at least according to an LEO friend of mine to whom I presented this "what if" today. He said there's way too much possible legal fallout from making a "pre-emptive" move against the BG in this situation. He specifically brought up your point, HK, that a move on my part might cause the "little girl" to be shot. As noted, if the BG starts shooting or executing people, then the situation changes.

This is a tough one for me as we had a young co-ed abducted and killed several years ago by some sexual pervert who had just been let loose. I and others spent time combing the snow-filled ditches looking for her or other clues to her whereabouts. Her body was finally found after snow-melt in the spring. She was young, beautiful, hard-working and I cried about it more than once. Since then, I have been haunted about this kind of crap. Thus, my rather tortured response to this "what if". Damn.

I know what you are saying. When you see the crimes committed by some of these low life animals it is almost enough to make you want to start hunting. Guess that is why I always liked the Charles Bronson Death Wish Movies.

 

[JJFlash]

Changing the scenario slightly, if I am in the store and BG pulls a weapon, if I gotta a chance to get the drop on him, with clear LOS, I'll take it. I'm trained heavily in defensive tactics, can pretty much hit what I am aiming at and am wicked fast on the draw (no brag, just fact). Sometimes you just gotta DO, and damn the legal consequences. In the end, I face the Ultimate Judge and that's all I'm worried about.

 

[Bullitt]

It seems like something's missing, here.

I'm not familiar with laws in other states, and not an expert on Texas laws, but I'm pretty sure that you're equally immune to prosecution or suit for defending others and others' property as if you were defending your own. In other words, you get to use your gun to stop an armed robbery or assault even though it's not being perpretrated against you.

So many of these posts express deep concern about getting to trouble for stepping in. I believe that in TX, you could legally intervene if you wanted to. Regardless, you're still responsible for the destination of every bullet that comes out of your gun.

Are so few other states like TX in this regard, or am I even wrong about TX laws?

 

[HK4U]

It seems like something's missing, here.

I'm not familiar with laws in other states, and not an expert on Texas laws, but I'm pretty sure that you're equally immune to prosecution or suit for defending others and others' property as if you were defending your own. In other words, you get to use your gun to stop an armed robbery or assault even though it's not being perpretrated against you.

So many of these posts express deep concern about getting to trouble for stepping in. I believe that in TX, you could legally intervene if you wanted to. Regardless, you're still responsible for the destination of every bullet that comes out of your gun.

Are so few other states like TX in this regard, or am I even wrong about TX laws?

You are with in your right in the state of Texas. However if something goes bad during the altercation and one of your rounds hits an innocent 3rd party then you may be held liable for that. Remember you are accountable for every round that leaves your weapon.

 

[JJFlash]

It seems like something's missing, here.

I'm not familiar with laws in other states, and not an expert on Texas laws, but I'm pretty sure that you're equally immune to prosecution or suit for defending others and others' property as if you were defending your own. In other words, you get to use your gun to stop an armed robbery or assault even though it's not being perpretrated against you.

So many of these posts express deep concern about getting to trouble for stepping in. I believe that in TX, you could legally intervene if you wanted to. Regardless, you're still responsible for the destination of every bullet that comes out of your gun.

Are so few other states like TX in this regard, or am I even wrong about TX laws?

And certainly not all states provide the immunity from criminal AND civil actions that apparently TX does, so there seem to be a number of stories of the state not bringing charges but allowing the effin BG to do so. Thus, all the angst and CYA posts...

 

[AvidshooterTX]

Agree with the sentiments expressed here. Your foremost duty is to return home to your spouse and kids and continue to support them and nurture them. You don't need your legal fees to become a financial burden on them or, worse yet, wind up in prison, leaving them in poverty.

 

[SteveB]

Unfortunately I think we're all animals. I'd love to be able to help, but our society is so litigious that i'd either end up in criminal court, or civil court (likely both).

Self defense is a personal responsibility. I embrace that as it is my duty to protect myself, and my family from harm. Unfortunately, actions taken by me not acting in an official capacity are actions that I will have to deal with personally- IE: I'm paying the legal fees, and if I lose I'm going to prison.

It would haunt me for life if I were to see the situation occurring,have the means to stop it, and due to my inaction someone be hurt or killed. However, Unless/until the law stops favoring the criminals then I have no choice but to be a witness..

The government and the liberal politicians forced my hand in the matter. If I act I'm a vigilante, if I don't I'm a coward. At least this coward won't be a bankrupt (legal fees) prisoner.

ClearSight, I hope you aren't the only one around when my family or me need help. I guess I will be a bankrupt prisoner, because I will NOT stand there and let an innocent person be hurt (family or stranger). Self defense is a personal responsibility??? Everybody does not have the means to be armed, or the ability to fight off a "bad guy". As long as it appears to be robbery only, hey, it's only money. But, if it goes beyond that, then I will do whatever I can to help an innocent person.So, you go ahead with your plan, I will stick with mine.

 

[gdcleanfun]

I was once asked a similar question: what would I do if I was shopping near the back of the store (Wally World) and I heard gun shots up front? The gals questioning me thought she'd trip me up, thinking my answer would be that I'd to go to the front of the store to help. Nope, I told her. Providing that my better half is not in the front of the store, I'd be out the back door and on the phone to 911 so fast that I'd leave her spinning around in place! lol I'm not a cop, not a vigilante. I'm only trying to defend myself and my loved ones. That's where my responsibility lies (lays?) Yes, in an ideal world I'd like to keep everyone safe, but I'm not trained for that. Leave that to the LEOs.

Just my .02cents worth, other opinions may vary.

 

[gestu1]

Unfortunately I think we're all animals. I'd love to be able to help, but our society is so litigious that i'd either end up in criminal court, or civil court (likely both).

Self defense is a personal responsibility. I embrace that as it is my duty to protect myself, and my family from harm. Unfortunately, actions taken by me not acting in an official capacity are actions that I will have to deal with personally- IE: I'm paying the legal fees, and if I lose I'm going to prison.

It would haunt me for life if I were to see the situation occurring,have the means to stop it, and due to my inaction someone be hurt or killed. However, Unless/until the law stops favoring the criminals then I have no choice but to be a witness..

The government and the liberal politicians forced my hand in the matter. If I act I'm a vigilante, if I don't I'm a coward. At least this coward won't be a bankrupt (legal fees) prisoner.

WELL SAID. I would hope level headed thinking would protect me from making the wrong decision. But if the BG starts shooting and I can stop him, I'll be emptying my mag. Maybe not the best thing but I think life is more valuable then anything else.

 

[kengrubb]

ClearSight, I hope you aren't the only one around when my family or me need help. I guess I will be a bankrupt prisoner, because I will NOT stand there and let an innocent person be hurt (family or stranger).

When donning White Knight attire, be damned sure of who is innocent.

Self defense is a personal responsibility??? Everybody does not have the means to be armed, or the ability to fight off a "bad guy".

So that means their misfortune has to become my own? The three branches of government are what made things untenable for someone coming to the aid of another. I didn't make the mess and me wading neck deep into a poop river doesn't seem like a good choice for me, particularly when nothing in the aftermath will change.

As long as it appears to be robbery only, hey, it's only money. But, if it goes beyond that, then I will do whatever I can to help an innocent person. So, you go ahead with your plan, I will stick with mine.

This scenario began as a simple robbery. Most robbers just want the money. If I open up on them for mere robbery, I'm instigating the gunfight. Even if I drop the BGs, one of the BGs could still hurt or kill an innocent person. I'm not saying robbery is a crime to be taken lightly or punished minimally. However, I am saying that I won't rush into a firefight over a robbery.

 

[SteveB]

When donning White Knight attire, be damned sure of who is innocent.


So that means their misfortune has to become my own? The three branches of government are what made things untenable for someone coming to the aid of another. I didn't make the mess and me wading neck deep into a poop river doesn't seem like a good choice for me, particularly when nothing in the aftermath will change.


This scenario began as a simple robbery. Most robbers just want the money. If I open up on them for mere robbery, I'm instigating the gunfight. Even if I drop the BGs, one of the BGs could still hurt or kill an innocent person. I'm not saying robbery is a crime to be taken lightly or punished minimally. However, I am saying that I won't rush into a firefight over a robbery.

Pay attention. I said if it goes beyond robbery. Some bg's want no witnesses.
Not trying to convince you that YOU should help, just that I would. Just the way I was brought up.

 

[6shootercarry]

Ok. slight change-up: The store clerk who is on the receiving end of the BG's gun barrel is your spouse or kid. NOW, what do you do?

"WHAT IF" From JJFlash...

Any member of my family and I shoot the guy where he stands... I know that type of emotional reaction could get me in trouble. If it were my child / wife the focus would be so intense I'd have to.

Now, The chaos factor... I get into fight mode and cause the BG to change his game plan. BG makes a mistake and someone gets hurt or killed. If I had just let him do his thing and he made off with the money maybe no one would be hurt?

Perhaps I cause an injury to a bystander, or worse while in fight mode... Now I'm the BG...

Yikes... How to do this...

I'll have to go with the "No shots, No Action" rule... 911 call and as I have typed before, be a good witness

If the barrel started coming in my direction, I'd be shooting first. No question. I'd have my weapon drawn and ready...

 

[kelcarry]

As much as I agree with CST and JJ I know that I am not an LEO, I am not trained to respond like an LEO, I am probably not armed like an LEO, I do not have communications like an LEO and I am not going to act like an LEO UNLESS it is my family or myself that is in the middle of this "hell". In SC, we have the alter ego doctrine in the law that allows me to defend this storekeeper etal as if it is me in their shoes--this gets into a dangerous situation when you come across a situation w/o all the facts and, really fellow forum members, not fully trained to act like an LEO. Easy to say the words on this forum--difficult to say how you would really react in "hell".

 

[gdcleanfun]

Easy to say the words on this forum--difficult to say how you would really react in "hell".

Oh so true!!! I froze. I was witness to first hubby's beating and I froze. That was more than 25 years ago and after Army training. That night I vowed to be better trained so I'd never freeze again. I've kept that vow. After stomping our local LEO Captain on the head with my shoes and screaming my fool head off in rage at him when he took me down in a recent class of women's self defense training, I don't believe I'll have trouble freezing ever again.

 

[Conservative Wife & Mom]

Oh so true!!! I froze. I was witness to first hubby's beating and I froze. That was more than 25 years ago and after Army training. That night I vowed to be better trained so I'd never freeze again. I've kept that vow. After stomping our local LEO Captain on the head with my shoes and screaming my fool head off in rage at him when he took me down in a recent class of women's self defense training, I don't believe I'll have trouble freezing ever again.

I'm truly impressed, gdcleanfun! The BG had better NOT mess with you! :triniti: Can I be your friend? :biggrin:

 

[ClearSightTactical]

ClearSight, I hope you aren't the only one around when my family or me need help. I guess I will be a bankrupt prisoner, because I will NOT stand there and let an innocent person be hurt (family or stranger). Self defense is a personal responsibility??? Everybody does not have the means to be armed, or the ability to fight off a "bad guy". As long as it appears to be robbery only, hey, it's only money. But, if it goes beyond that, then I will do whatever I can to help an innocent person.So, you go ahead with your plan, I will stick with mine.

Sorry, I didn't see this post until now. :-D

I have no duty nor responsibility, nor expectation to protect you or anyone else for that matter.

If you feel that you should risk your freedom and financial future for a stranger - more power to you. Expect to be labeled a vigilante, a cowboy, quick draw (insert your name), etc. Expect a public outcry for your punishment (as well as release..)

Self defense is indeed a personal responsibility. It is not the duty of the Police to protect you. See Warren v. District of Columbia it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen."

I will go ahead with my plan Cowboy (see it started already). When you get arrested & charged i'll be sure to write to the jurisdiction demanding your release- and donate to your legal fund. (I'm not being sarcastic).

As far as not having the means to be armed or fight off a bad guy they should demand the Castle doctrine, and immunity from criminal and civil prosecution for an armed citizen stopping a bad guy to their legislators...that is how they can help fight back. Again, until the law stops favoring the criminal we have no choice but to be a witness.

 

[ClearSightTactical]

When donning White Knight attire, be damned sure of who is innocent.

Quote of the year..