What happens when the criminal DOESN'T run away?

[Eidolon]

I think most of us are familiar with this thread

Street robberies and you - The Basics - AR15.COM

It was originally posted on AR15.com and has made the rounds to most gun forums since. Interestingly enough this thread

My CCW Shooting AAR--Now with More Graphic Pics on pg 29 & 30 -

which was the reason the above thread was written in the first place didn’t get as much exposure.

The second thread is an AAR by a poster named Blitz308 who engaged a criminal who was in the process of robbing he and several friends during a guy’s night out. If you read through the entire thread Blitz states that he was convinced that the robber was setting them up for an execution and except for the fact that the robber was armed with a 5 shot revolver and Blitz and his friends numbered 6 or 7 I agree but we’ll never know.

What did stand out were the following:


The robber didn’t hesitate for a second, he fired as soon as it became clear that blitz was armed and preparing to resist.

The robber stayed in the fight; even after being shot he didn’t retreat until he was out of ammunition. To his credit Blitz did too.

The robber was more skilled at his craft than Blitz was (sorry, it is what it is). If I read the report correctly the robber connected with 4 out of 5 shots while Blitz (who had plenty of training just growing up around guns) connected with 1 out of 7.

I really have only one thing that I would add to the first thread and that is you had better go into the fight expecting to be up against someone who very likely has more experience than you, is more willing to shoot than you are (if you are a normal human being) and who is going to fight you every step of the way.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Why is it not normal to be more than willing to shoot to defend your life?

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[Eidolon]

Why is it not normal to be more than willing to shoot to defend your life?

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My opinion Most humans were raised with a moral code that says that killing another human being even in self defense is if not wrong at least to be avoided at all costs. If you read past the OP in the first thread there's a post that references a study among street criminals who had shot cops and almost across the board the criminals said part of the reason the cops got shot is because they weren't willing to use deadly force.

Anecdotally read through some of the Armed Citizen pages in an NRA magazine almost every time the good guy draws and tell the bad guy to drop it instead of opening fire which is exactly what the criminal in this instance did. If you read through Blitz’s thread he says he thinks the criminal hear the safety come off and fired without the slightest hesitation

 

[Bikenut]

What happens when the criminal doesn't run?

Sometimes shots are fired and no one gets shot...

Sometimes the criminal gets shot...

Sometimes the victim gets shot...

Sometimes both criminal and victim get shot...

I'm wondering how long it will be before there is a post referencing ultra special fantastic uber fantastic training being necessary to be prepared for when the criminal doesn't run.

 

[Eidolon]

I'm wondering how long it will be before there is a post referencing ultra special fantastic uber fantastic training being necessary to be prepared for when the criminal doesn't run.

I wonder how long it will be before anyone acknowledges that the criminal did a better job in the fight than the good guy

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
I'm wondering how long it will be before there is a post referencing ultra special fantastic uber fantastic training being necessary to be prepared for when the criminal doesn't run.

I wonder how long it will be before anyone acknowledges that the criminal did a better job in the fight than the good guy

Are you implying the criminal had better training?

 

[apvbguy]

Why is it not normal to be more than willing to shoot to defend your life?

because you never know how people will react in a shtf situation, that is one reason for training often, you train often to try and make the reactions mechanical, to make it so you react without thinking it through, to react with precision.
however you've already made fun of me because I said that I train a lot and that if I draw my weapon it is coming out firing.

 

[apvbguy]

I'm wondering how long it will be before there is a post referencing ultra special fantastic uber fantastic training being necessary to be prepared for when the criminal doesn't run.

uber fantastic?
that doesn't exist, training so that when the worst occurs you are able to function under the stress is about all that you can do. you'll never know if you'll pee in your pants or draw fire in order to defend your life until it happens, training just push the odds of survival in your favor

 

[apvbguy]

Are you implying the criminal had better training?

the criminal could be desensitized to violence while most suburban ninjas wallow in remorse about killing a roach

 

[Bikenut]

uber fantastic?
that doesn't exist, training so that when the worst occurs you are able to function under the stress is about all that you can do. you'll never know if you'll pee in your pants or draw fire in order to defend your life until it happens, training just push the odds of survival in your favor

Training does NOT answer the question of whether a person will rise to the occasion or stand there and pee their pants. The only thing that will answer that question is to be in a situation where fight or submit (pee) are the only options. All that training will do is help the person who decided to fight survive the fight.

The fact that training helps a person who decided to fight survive the fight makes training worthwhile.... but all the training in the world won't help a person who freezes at that "fight or submit" moment.

Besides.... I highly suspect the purpose of this thread was to lead into touting the value of training... which is why I kicked it in that direction in the first place just to get it over with already.

 

[Eidolon]

Are you implying the criminal had better training?

I know nothing of the criminal's training, I do know the criminal was a graduate of one of the toughest fininshing schools on the planet, a maximum security prison.

I know Blitz stated in his thread that he had absolutely no formal training prior to the incident but he damn sure planned on getting some as soon as his hands healed up.

Maybe you should read through the thread and take what you can use from it instead of trying to start a pissing constest with me

 

[Bikenut]

I know nothing of the criminal's training, I do know the criminal was a graduate of one of the toughest fininshing schools on the planet, a maximum security prison.

I know Blitz stated in his thread that he had absolutely no formal training prior to the incident but he damn sure planned on getting some as soon as his hands healed up.

Maybe you should read through the thread and tak ewhat you can use form it instead of trying to start a pissing constest with me

So you took my references to the amount of the criminal's training personally? Interesting. Not relevant... but interesting.

 

[Firefighterchen]

My opinion Most humans were raised with a moral code that says that killing another human being even in self defense is if not wrong at least to be avoided at all costs. If you read past the OP in the first thread there's a post that references a study among street criminals who had shot cops and almost across the board the criminals said part of the reason the cops got shot is because they weren't willing to use deadly force.

Anecdotally read through some of the Armed Citizen pages in an NRA magazine almost every time the good guy draws and tell the bad guy to drop it instead of opening fire which is exactly what the criminal in this instance did. If you read through Blitz’s thread he says he thinks the criminal hear the safety come off and fired without the slightest hesitation

We all agree avoidance is best, but we aren't talking about avoidance, we are taking about a bad guy who has a gun all ready out and most likely pointed at you. Victim mentality has indeed been forced into the new normal. There is nothing moral about not defending yourself from evil.

I wonder how long it will be before anyone acknowledges that the criminal did a better job in the fight than the good guy

I believe the very first post acknowledges it.

because you never know how people will react in a shtf situation, that is one reason for training often, you train often to try and make the reactions mechanical, to make it so you react without thinking it through, to react with precision.
however you've already made fun of me because I said that I train a lot and that if I draw my weapon it is coming out firing.

I probably disagreed, maybe I made fun of you, care to tell me when I did? I do disagree that guns should only come out blazing, that eliminates to many possibilities that could happen in the few seconds that it takes to draw. You may want to stop thinking when you draw your firearm, I on the other hand would rather keep using my brain and have the muscle memory to draw efficiently.

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[Eidolon]

raining does NOT answer the question of whether a person will rise to the occasion or stand there and pee their pants.

According to Barret Tillman people don't rise to the occasion in an emergency they default to their level of mastered training. Ever been to a school while they're doing a fire drill? the alarm goes off and the kids don't even think, they line up and walk out the door.

The fact that training helps a person who decided to fight survive the fight makes training worthwhile.... but all the training in the world won't help a person who freezes at that "fight or submit" moment.

Oddly enough that's exactly why the Military spends so much time training recruits and soldiers what to do in a fight and they practice and practice and practice until they can do it blind folded in their sleep. Do some of them freeze in combat? of course but the vast majority do exactly as they are trained to do

Besides.... I highly suspect the purpose of this thread was to lead into touting the value of training... which is why I kicked it in that direction in the first place just to get it over with already.

I started this thread to address the idea that the most likely out come is the bad guy running as soon as you draw. You don't train for best case scenarios you train for the worst possible thing that can happen and work your way back from there

 

[apvbguy]

that eliminates to many possibilities that could happen in the few seconds that it takes to draw.

if you take a few seconds to draw you are already a statistic!
for me it is under 1 second to draw and fire from concealment, quicker if OCing (which for me is rare), second shot comes .03 of a second later. get some training and learn how to operate that tool you lug around it might be the difference between being a live stat or a dead stat.

 

[BluesStringer]

One might be forgiven for wondering why you didn't keep your inaccurate interpretations of a GOA list of gun use facts in the same thread where you started this meme that we're all counting on the bad guy running at the sight of our weapons. It started with wolf_fire offering documentation to counter a ridiculous meme that you started and carried throughout the rest of the thread, basically saying that 1) few of us on this forum even know the self defense laws of our own states, 2) you'd "bet" that 30% of participants here don't carry all the time and don't carry with a loaded chamber, 3) and you poo-poo'ed the need to back up some of what you said with documentation and/or stats, the latter of which is what I think prompted Wolf to provide some for you when he said:

Then why are there approximately 2.5 million defenses with a legal handgun every year on average? I'm assuming that 6850 per day that did defend themselves with a firearm are not prepared to defend themselves according to you ideologies? Of these defenses nearly half a million occur outside of their home, meaning they are armed and walking the streets prepared. You claim you have no statistics, this one thing we agree on.

https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm

Your answer (in part) to that was:

Did they defend themselves or did their attacker break contact when he saw the gun?

And ever since then you have put forth the meme that the majority of us count on an assailant running away at the sight of a gun, rather than recognizing the truth that the majority of us would simply be willing to accept it as a successful defense of ourselves if it happens.

The annotated, footnoted documentation that Wolf offered you says this about thugs running when they see a gun:

Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.[3]

While that 8% stat doesn't say what percentage actually fire their weapons (warning or misses vs. kill/wound), it certainly does validate the use of the words "overwhelming majority" of thugs run when they see a gun. In short, stats show conclusively that the sight of a weapon does stop the overwhelming majority of common street thugs, and that most citizen-carriers (OC or CC) are willing to accept success when it looks like a thug beatin' feet away from them. What it doesn't address in any way, manner, shape or form is the preparedness the citizen-carrier has to pull the trigger if necessary, or the average citizen-carrier's level of training, or if they carry all the time, or any other made-up "stat" that the OP pulled out of his fantasies that his musings are equal to researched and documented statistics.

Of course, Bruce Lee here has to take those stats and put on the citizen-carrier that they're literally unprepared for anything other than the bad-guy running away, as he talks down his Super Hero nose in the OP just as he did in the other thread. Well, the GOA list had some interesting info on Super Heroes too:

Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).[6] And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."[7]

Cops are 9 percentage points more likely to be a menace to innocents when firing their weapons than are citizen-carriers, yet to hear Bruce Lee tell it, we're not only unprepared victims-waiting-to-happen to the bad-guys, we're a menace to ourselves because of how unprepared and untrained we are, and we supposedly lack the ability to kill because, well, the stats say we didn't kill when we had "the opportunity" due to the fact that brandishing our weapons made the victimizer change his mind about victimizing us the overwhelming majority of the time. Super Heroes are better because they pull their triggers on bad-guys (and innocents as it turns out) quicker.

This is just a duplicate thread. Avoiding the stats that were presented, and/or completely obfuscating what they reveal, doesn't change the fact that the OP of this thread completely misconstrued their meaning(s) in the first thread, just as he has in this one.

Super Heroes are great fun in comic books and movies. They suck on internet forums and real life though.

Blues

 

[Eidolon]

I do disagree that guns should only come out blazing, that eliminates to many possibilities that could happen in the few seconds that it takes to draw. You may want to stop thinking when you draw your firearm, I on the other hand would rather keep using my brain and have the muscle memory to draw efficiently.

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That, right there, is what I wanted to address.

Go back and read Blitz’ AAR thread the criminal didn’t give him an eye blink’s chance, the instant Blitz tried to bring his gun into play the criminal shot. He didn’t say drop it or freeze or any of that he (tried to) put the revolver against Blitz’ side and he shot.

I started turning to my right, into him, flipping the safety at some point along the way. He either saw the gun or heard the safety click as I had turned into him enough for him to be at my 3 O'clock and shoved his revolver inside my open jacket against my stomach and fired the first round.

To paraphrase the first thread as soon as you see the criminal’s weapon you shoot. You don’t tell him to drop it or any of that crap as soon as he presents a weapon you go weapons free and that means you had better be firing the second you clear the holster. At that point (IMO) Blitz should have fired from retention (point shooting) instead of trying to take a sight picture

 

[Bikenut]

According to Barret Tillman people don't rise to the occasion in an emergency they default to their level of mastered training. Ever been to a school while they're doing a fire drill? the alarm goes off and the kids don't even think, they line up and walk out the door.

Red herring argument.... lining up for a fire drill is NOT the same as pulling the trigger on another human being. Or are you implying that if a person gets enough training they will just pull the trigger without thinking? Or that it would be a good thing if people got enough training so they WILL pull the trigger without thinking?

Oddly enough that's exactly why the Military spends so much time training recruits and soldiers what to do in a fight and they practice and practice and practice until they can do it blind folded in their sleep. Do some of them freeze in combat? of course but the vast majority do exactly as they are trained to do


Didn't I just say:

Originally posted by Bikenut
Training does NOT answer the question of whether a person will rise to the occasion or stand there and pee their pants. The only thing that will answer that question is to be in a situation where fight or submit (pee) are the only options. All that training will do is help the person who decided to fight survive the fight.

And the portion of your post I put in bold support what I said?

I started this thread to address the idea that the most likely out come is the bad guy running as soon as you draw. You don't train for best case scenarios you train for the worst possible thing that can happen and work your way back from there

Ok.... what makes you think folks believe the most likely outcome is the bad guy running away? What studies do you have that show folks expect the bad guy will run away? Are there training programs that train folks that the bad guy will run away?

 

[Eidolon]

Are there training programs that train folks that the bad guy will run away?

If there were I'm sure you guys would think they were elitist and evil

 

[Eidolon]

20 posts in and not one person has addressed the information presented. That's telling