What do the laws say?


OK i have been reading the 7 stage guide that was posted on here and people are talking about being in the mind set and always thinking what if this happens and then this. What i want to know is say you are in a store and it's being robbed at gun point and you have a Concealed carry permit and your gun on you. What are the laws around this? Are you with in your rights to pull your gun and open fire? I was thinking no because they are not pointing the gun at you and robbing you. They are robbing the store? Am i wrong on this matter? What about other things like lets say a mass shooting at a walmart are you with in your right to get in a gun fight with the shooter? I also ask because i found this video on youtube. What if like in the video some one is being stabbed in front of you are you with in the law to shoot the person?

Here is the video.
YouTube - Good Samaritan Kills Woman's Attacker
 

SOME States authorizes deadly force in defending a 3rd-party/person, some states frowns upon it
Some states require you to retreat if possible, some states allow you to stand your ground.
 

kwo51

New member
Stop the assault ..........Deadly force requires deadly force.Protect another living being.
 

Palmach

New member
In Florida you have the right to use deadly force to stop a forcible felony. Thus, in your scenario you would be within your rights here in Florida to pull your firearm and stop the robbery.
 
WOW i had no idea that the laws about when you can use a gun had to to with this type of stuff as well. Well now i know if it was me in the middle of a mass shooting i would get the hell out of there let the cops deal with it thats what they get paid for. unless he was blocking the door or was coming after me and my family in the store. Some one robbing a store is more so you have no choice but to pull your gun. If some one came in and robbed the store and it looked to me as if they where going to kill every one in there. Or they shot the clerk then i would draw my gun but other then that i think i would just let it out and file the police report. As i am not dirty harry looking to stop all the bad guys. But again is this just me? What would you do if there was a mass shooting? Or the Gas station was being robbed with you in it?
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
In the first scenario, if you can either hide or get out, do so, but have your gun ready in case SHTF. Same goes for the second scenario. I believe that trouble should be avoided whenever possible; only if you and your family can't safely hide or leave should you try to confront the perp.
 

kwo51

New member
Could you live with yourself if women and chrildren were being killed in your presents and you did nothing.Yes I believe in covering my ass, the moral obligation to defend the weak is here .
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
OK i have been reading the 7 stage guide that was posted on here and people are talking about being in the mind set and always thinking what if this happens and then this. What i want to know is say you are in a store and it's being robbed at gun point and you have a Concealed carry permit and your gun on you. What are the laws around this? Are you with in your rights to pull your gun and open fire? I was thinking no because they are not pointing the gun at you and robbing you. They are robbing the store? Am i wrong on this matter? What about other things like lets say a mass shooting at a walmart are you with in your right to get in a gun fight with the shooter? I also ask because i found this video on youtube. What if like in the video some one is being stabbed in front of you are you with in the law to shoot the person?
Keep in mind that in a situation you do not know the players. If no one has been harmed yet, it is best to let the subject go. It may be an undercover LEO for all you know acting like they're robbing the place or apprehending a fujitive. If all they're doing is taking the money and running, it's not your job to intervene. You also risk civil liability if one of your bullets hits an innocent bystander or damages property even if it goes through the subject, stops them and keeps on going and kills someone else. Anything a bullet from your firearm touches after it comes out of the barrel you own.

If you're in a situation where you may be another victim such as the Trolley Square incident in SLC Utah then yes, intervene because if you don't, you'll end up getting an honorable mention on a real life episode of CSI.

Also keep in mind that the laws very greatly from State to State concerning use of lethal force and civil liability associated with using it. In FL or MO, you wouldn't have an issue because of their stand your ground statutes. If the shooting is justifiable and all of your rounds went into the subject that you justifiably used force against you should not have an issue in FL or MO. However, you may have an issue in your State and definitely an issue in States with no castle doctrine law.
 
KWO50 you make a good point that the sheep dogs should watch out for the sheep when the wolf comes to play. But at the same time like netentity said we do not know all the facts and it may be a cop. What i was getting at was if i was in the middle of a mass shooting i would get the hell out of there. I would only draw and use my gun if they where blocking the door or they where coming after me or my family. I would also act if i saw the shooter or shooter's about to kill another person ONLY IF they where by me at the time. What i mean by get the hell out of there is i am not going to go and track the shooter or shooter's down and shoot it out with them just because i have a gun. Netentity also said the same thing as i said about only acting if some one was about to be hurt. Like i said in the above posts if they look like they just want the money and will leave with it thats fine take it. Not my job to stop them unless i am about to die.
 

sambo42xa

USA Carry Supporter
Keep in mind that in a situation you do not know the players. If no one has been harmed yet, it is best to let the subject go. It may be an undercover LEO for all you know acting like they're robbing the place or apprehending a fujitive. If all they're doing is taking the money and running, it's not your job to intervene. You also risk civil liability if one of your bullets hits an innocent bystander or damages property even if it goes through the subject, stops them and keeps on going and kills someone else. Anything a bullet from your firearm touches after it comes out of the barrel you own.

If you're in a situation where you may be another victim such as the Trolley Square incident in SLC Utah then yes, intervene because if you don't, you'll end up getting an honorable mention on a real life episode of CSI.

Also keep in mind that the laws very greatly from State to State concerning use of lethal force and civil liability associated with using it. In FL or MO, you wouldn't have an issue because of their stand your ground statutes. If the shooting is justifiable and all of your rounds went into the subject that you justifiably used force against you should not have an issue in FL or MO. However, you may have an issue in your State and definitely an issue in States with no castle doctrine law.

+1 on everything here. ALL this was taught in my NRA courses I took. But at least now You have an idea of where You're standing ground.
Here's one.............You are walking OR driving and you see a female being forced to the ground by a male Maybe at gunpoint and She is struggling OR screaming rape, etc. Do You pull your weapon/s out on the male? The male could be an undercover LEO arresting a prostitute/warrant on Her/etc. YOU do not know. You make very good points but only YOU can make the call. It's not easy making a decision or checking out the entire scenario in a split second. Read over again and take in the above quote.
 

HK4U

New member
What I will do depends on a number of things. If my family is with me my first duty is to get them to a safe place if I can. If I am alone or they are safe and I have the ability to terminate the attack I will probably do what I can. I can not stand by and watch the slaughter of innocent people if I have the ability to stop it.
 
Last edited:

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
+1 on everything here. ALL this was taught in my NRA courses I took. But at least now You have an idea of where You're standing ground.
Here's one.............You are walking OR driving and you see a female being forced to the ground by a male Maybe at gunpoint and She is struggling OR screaming rape, etc. Do You pull your weapon/s out on the male? The male could be an undercover LEO arresting a prostitute/warrant on Her/etc. YOU do not know. You make very good points but only YOU can make the call. It's not easy making a decision or checking out the entire scenario in a split second. Read over again and take in the above quote.
Have your firearm ready just in case but not displayed, get your cell with your non-dominate hand and yell "I'm calling 91!." If it's a LEO affecting an arrest, they should ID themselves as such. In which case you call 911 anyway and ask a marked unit to assist. You're probably doing the LEO a favor by getting them backup or a marked vehicle to transport the suspect.

If male turns and charges towards you, it's most likely not a LEO in which case you point the firearm and fire. If the male aggressor just runs, be a good witness and assist the female by calling 911 and getting LEOs and EMTs out there. You've also done the female a favor in this instance.

By getting your cell phone ready and yelling, "I'm calling 911!" you are drawing the aggressor's attention in the situation to you so you can hopefully better identify the players. Proper use of a cell phone and your voice can be a very effective self defense tool.

If you're confortable using these techniques to assess the situation better then by all means do so.

Only use your firearm to defend a 3rd person if you know the 3rd person or you know for sure who the players are. If you don't, use some technique or distraction to find out who the players are.

Only intervene if you are comfortable doing so and you are certain who the players are.
 

KimberPB

New member
Have your firearm ready just in case but not displayed, get your cell with your non-dominate hand and yell "I'm calling 91!." If it's a LEO affecting an arrest, they should ID themselves as such. In which case you call 911 anyway and ask a marked unit to assist. You're probably doing the LEO a favor by getting them backup or a marked vehicle to transport the suspect.

If male turns and charges towards you, it's most likely not a LEO in which case you point the firearm and fire. If the male aggressor just runs, be a good witness and assist the female by calling 911 and getting LEOs and EMTs out there. You've also done the female a favor in this instance.

By getting your cell phone ready and yelling, "I'm calling 911!" you are drawing the aggressor's attention in the situation to you so you can hopefully better identify the players. Proper use of a cell phone and your voice can be a very effective self defense tool.

If you're confortable using these techniques to assess the situation better then by all means do so.

Only use your firearm to defend a 3rd person if you know the 3rd person or you know for sure who the players are. If you don't, use some technique or distraction to find out who the players are.

Only intervene if you are comfortable doing so and you are certain who the players are.

+1 netentity. In the scenario of the robbery, if I hear someone yell "give me all the money or I'm going to blow you F'n head off" while pointing a gun at a cashier it’s safe to say that’s not a cop. Also he's flat out told you his intentions. Like said before, in Florida I'd be justified to use deadly force in that scenario. I personally think I would. Must likely I have a tactical advantage being behind the actor with his attention on the cashier. So I should be able to get a well aim shot off before he realizes what’s going on.

In the Mass shooting scenario, if someone is walking around shooting people at random again justified to shoot without worry of it being a cop. If I was in harms way or in the position to stop the threat I believe I would try my best to do so. On the same token I'm not going to go running to the other side of the mall, gun in hand, trying to find the shooter.

Other scenario's such as someone being held at gun point, Holding someone down, chasing someone, ect. It’s better to be a good witness and call 911. Here is a scenario that was given to us during my CCW class that was a real life event. You're driving down the road and see a petite white woman running screaming for help. A few strides behind her is a much larger black male chasing her. What do you do? Must people said they'd step in and try to help. Some said they'd try to hit the male with there car. One said they'd be a good witness. Well, the black male ended up being an under cover narcotics officer that was chasing a suspect that just ripped them off on a drug deal. So just keep that story in the back of your mind when deciding to step in to help a third party.
 

kwo51

New member
Also all the events that take place at the crime are charged to the perp.In florida the perp that caused the events is responceable for them.
 
WOW this topic just keeps getting more and more great feedback i love it!!! I also like that i am not alone and most would do the same. As i do not live in FL i could not just pull my gun and shoot the guy's/girl's. I really love that story about the drug deal with the Narc cop that was great. As if you had stepped in and shot the guy you would turn into a cop killer in like 5sec. Love the feedback i am getting keep it coming.
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
Also all the events that take place at the crime are charged to the perp.In florida the perp that caused the events is responceable for them.
While that is true, I would still feel horrible if I did shoot and kill a FL LEO acting in their official capacity during a legitimate arrest or investigation even if I was protected under FL law and not charged with a crime.

Also keep in mind that there is a high probability that such an incident would be tried in court as defense of a 3rd person is under even higher scrutiny during a homicide investigation.

Even if you are not charged and the shooting was justifiable you still have to look at yourself in the mirror in the next morning. There have been incidents of civilians, LEOs and military involved in justifiable self defense incidents going off the deep end. The decision to pull the trigger is one not to be taken lightly. Make sure it is a justifiable action for the given event so you don't second guess yourself.

I also tell my students this. If you're involved in such an incident, get professional counseling. You may have survived physically and quite possibly unharmed at all but the post traumatic stress disorder can eat you alive.
 

kwo51

New member
That is the question will you when you need to. We all have to ask ourselves and yes pst is a bigger problem now than at WW11. We treat even hardened criminals as nice little fellows,not monsters.We were taught the Gooks were monsters and we came home to a country that love them. That caused PST>:alcoholic:
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
+1 netentity. In the scenario of the robbery, if I hear someone yell "give me all the money or I'm going to blow you F'n head off" while pointing a gun at a cashier it’s safe to say that’s not a cop. Also he's flat out told you his intentions. Like said before, in Florida I'd be justified to use deadly force in that scenario. I personally think I would. Must likely I have a tactical advantage being behind the actor with his attention on the cashier. So I should be able to get a well aim shot off before he realizes what’s going on.

In the Mass shooting scenario, if someone is walking around shooting people at random again justified to shoot without worry of it being a cop. If I was in harms way or in the position to stop the threat I believe I would try my best to do so. On the same token I'm not going to go running to the other side of the mall, gun in hand, trying to find the shooter.

Other scenario's such as someone being held at gun point, Holding someone down, chasing someone, ect. It’s better to be a good witness and call 911. Here is a scenario that was given to us during my CCW class that was a real life event. You're driving down the road and see a petite white woman running screaming for help. A few strides behind her is a much larger black male chasing her. What do you do? Must people said they'd step in and try to help. Some said they'd try to hit the male with there car. One said they'd be a good witness. Well, the black male ended up being an under cover narcotics officer that was chasing a suspect that just ripped them off on a drug deal. So just keep that story in the back of your mind when deciding to step in to help a third party.


Let's just hope that doesn't ever happen in real life. It's safe to say that the average law abiding citizen would probably step out and intervene. And what if the person intervening is himself a police officer? The guy running after most likely, if he doesn't flash his badge in a timely manner, would end up face down on the ground or even dead.
 
Well, the black male ended up being an under cover narcotics officer that was chasing a suspect that just ripped them off on a drug deal. So just keep that story in the back of your mind when deciding to step in to help a third party.
Let's just hope that doesn't ever happen in real life. It's safe to say that the average law abiding citizen would probably step out and intervene. And what if the person intervening is himself a police officer? The guy running after most likely, if he doesn't flash his badge in a timely manner, would end up face down on the ground or even dead.


It did happen in Real Life (similarly)

In Rhode Island, a Black male tried to assist in apprehending a guy running from police officers, the black male drew a weapon to force the suspect to comply, the Black male was shot and killed by the other police officers, the Black male was an off-duty police officer that heard about the suspect over his radio ( I think ) ..

Story is here ( Link Removed )
On January 27, 2000, an off-duty Black police officer, son of the highest ranking minority in the city police department, was shot and killed by two White police officers in Providence, Rhode Island. The incident occurred outside a local restaurant, where one of two women engaged in an altercation asked an Hispanic male friend to get his gun. The Black off-duty officer, who was apparently attempting to assist the policemen responding to the scene, was shot by White police officers under ambiguous circumstances.

Some people after getting their CCW, believes they are now police officers

I say, let the police do the job that they are paid to do.
Stay out the way.
 

New Threads

Members online

No members online now.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
49,337
Messages
622,558
Members
74,165
Latest member
seniorgeek
Top