What benefits to open carry?

[Booga]

Since OC is illegal most places, that might have a lot to do with your observation (which of course is nothing but anecdotal)

So far as I can tell, 27 states allow you to carry without a permit. Several other states allow you to openly carry with a permit, so that is the majority of states. It seems that OC is not illegal in most places.

That being said, your other points about the percentage of people carrying, openly or not seems to have a deterrent effect upon criminals and crime. Getting shot is not pleasant. Seeing a gun on a well dressed person screams "COP!" to most people.

I see open carry as a way to promote safety, courtesy, and awareness of our rights. I've heard of the "down-side" to carrying openly, but have yet to hear of any credible fears of OC coming true. The majority of folks encountering OC individuals seems to be positive.

 

[maybejim]

So far as I can tell, 27 states allow you to carry without a permit. Several other states allow you to openly carry with a permit, so that is the majority of states. It seems that OC is not illegal in most places.

I don't know the law in all those states but I suspect that it is conditional. You can open carry in Kalifornia, just if you are in an incorporated area, your gun can not be loaded. I doubt that that serves as a real deterrent to any criminal. Open Carry is legal in Oregon but I've never see it in Ontario, or the little towns around Ontario. The same I believe is true for Idaho but I've never seen it in Boise or in the little towns from Boise to the Oregon border. Anecdotal but I expect I have seen more people there than anyone here has seen criminals committing a crime with a gun. On the other hand I have seen Open Carry in several little towns in Arizona (but not in Phoenix).

What was the purpose of your post other than an attempt at another personal attack on what I have to say or an attempt to get a reaction from me? You've done this to me and to others in the past. This leads me to believe that you're more "anti" than "pro" 2a.

It wasn't a personal attack at all. I wonder why you want to make it so. I don't see a lot of positives for Open Carry. I can't see that it would actually realistically reduce crime or violence. It simply would make it easier to pick a safer victim. I don't think there will ever be a noticeable number of people practicing OC. Not in the reasonable future. I don't oppose Open Carry, I just think that it would be more difficult to get accepted than Concealed Carry and would serve more of a detriment towards moving the country to accepting the 2nd Amendment and opposing anti-gun laws. I hear the arguments that it would serve as a conditioning of people to accepting guns. I think at this time it would not but would serve the exact opposite.

The anti's have taken a long time to train the country to fear and hate guns. It's going to take awhile to overcome that. Jumping ahead to forcing it down the throats of the average don't really give a thought citizen I think would be a bad thing.

I don't understand why you can't simply agree that we need to educate members of the public, rather than attack someone on an issue for no apparent reason

.

I was going after your statement not you. That you or I have observed something is anecdotal and holds no scientific value. Because open carry is so unusual (regardless of whatever laws exist), a BG carrying openly would attract attention to himself. That wouldn't be his goal when he's setting up for a criminal act. Why would popularizing OC not make it easier for a BG to walk in OC to commit a crime?

 

[Glock Fan]

Short sleeved white dress shirt, business style neck tie, tie clip, black leather belt, black dress pants, black socks, black leather shoes with a high shine, Fossil watch, Glock 22 in Black Galco FLETCH strong side holster, where does that scream COP? Add a bicycle, helmet, and backpack, I'd be mistaken for a Morman missionary.



Which is a good thing, IMHO.

I've actually seen a couple of Morman Missionaries OCing. This is ironic because the LDS church is the only church in the state of UT that is officially off limits for OC/CC because they make sure they're in compliance with state law that makes their churches "gun free" zones.



gf

 

[NcPermit]

The advantage is when concealed carry becomes popular (I forget the numbers but I'm thinking at about 5%) confrontational crime drops because criminals don't know who might be armed. So everyone, not just those who are carrying is safer. With open carry, criminals might avoid those they can see carrying but then they likely would turn to those who are not openly carrying. Then too with open carry criminals can carry openly with no one thinking ill about it.

I guess the only solution is legal open and concealed carry and a push to get as many people as possible to just carry.

Do you have an alarm system? If so, are you like thousands of other people who place a stop sign shaped sign in the bushes by the front door or a sticker in the window closest to the lock that reads,"ADT", "Pinkerton" or some other brand of alarm? This is how I feel about open carry. It is a stop sign. I think the average criminal is going to say to himself, "Self, this guy just might shoot me right in the face if I try to victimize him, but look over there. There is someone without a gun, so Self, you go rob them instead." This is called crime displacement. It does not deter crime, it only displaces it to the person who did not prepare.

Wallet, watch, keys & gun. The four things I never leave home without.

Troy Perry
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[maybejim]

Do you have an alarm system? If so, are you like thousands of other people who place a stop sign shaped sign in the bushes by the front door or a sticker in the window closest to the lock that reads,"ADT", "Pinkerton" or some other brand of alarm? This is how I feel about open carry. It is a stop sign. I think the average criminal is going to say to himself, "Self, this guy just might shoot me right in the face if I try to victimize him, but look over there. There is someone without a gun, so Self, you go rob them instead." This is called crime displacement. It does not deter crime, it only displaces it to the person who did not prepare.

Wallet, watch, keys & gun. The four things I never leave home without.

Troy Perry
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I agree with you. But my conclusion as a result is Concealed Carry because then statistics say everyone is safer. "Shall Issue" is passed, an increasing number start carrying concealed, confrontational crime goes down. To my mind, that's a win-win situation. That means my wife who won't carry and my daughter in law and my grandkids are all safer because there are fewer confrontations.

 

[chroode]

Best of BOTH worlds!!!

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Arizona: Carry Reform Bill Passes out of Committee

Wednesday, February 10, 2010

Please Contact Your State Legislators!

Last week House Bill 2347 passed out of the House Military Affairs and Public Safety Committee by a vote of 5 to 2. HB 2347 would eliminate a long standing double standard between concealed carry and open carry.

Currently under Arizona law it is generally legal to carry a firearm openly as long as you are 18 years of age and not prohibited from possessing a firearm. However, if the firearm becomes covered, say with a coat, or if you are a woman and prefer to carry your firearm in your purse, you need to possess a concealed carry permit. The permit system is expensive and time consuming, considering all you have done is change your attire. While the recently amended language would allow law-abiding persons to carry their firearm concealed, it would not allow those without permits to carry concealed in places that require a permit, such as restaurants. It is the intention of the NRA to fully support the amended version of HB 2347 and provide greater freedom of choice for Arizona gun owners.

Please take the time to respectfully urge your state legislators to support the amended

 

[MONTANA]

Do you have an alarm system? If so, are you like thousands of other people who place a stop sign shaped sign in the bushes by the front door or a sticker in the window closest to the lock that reads,"ADT", "Pinkerton" or some other brand of alarm? This is how I feel about open carry. It is a stop sign. I think the average criminal is going to say to himself, "Self, this guy just might shoot me right in the face if I try to victimize him, but look over there. There is someone without a gun, so Self, you go rob them instead." This is called crime displacement. It does not deter crime, it only displaces it to the person who did not prepare.

Wallet, watch, keys & gun. The four things I never leave home without.

Troy Perry
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I see your point, but I think the real deterrent is the criminal saying: "I'm in a state that is mandated to issue concealed carry permits to law abiding citizens...........I wonder which people are armed and which ones are not?"

 

[Ringo]

Do you have an alarm system? If so, are you like thousands of other people who place a stop sign shaped sign in the bushes by the front door or a sticker in the window closest to the lock that reads,"ADT", "Pinkerton" or some other brand of alarm? This is how I feel about open carry. It is a stop sign. I think the average criminal is going to say to himself, "Self, this guy just might shoot me right in the face if I try to victimize him, but look over there. There is someone without a gun, so Self, you go rob them instead." This is called crime displacement. It does not deter crime, it only displaces it to the person who did not prepare.

Wallet, watch, keys & gun. The four things I never leave home without.

Troy Perry
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maybejim says that he"guesses that the only solution is legal open and conceal carry and a push to get as many people as possible to just carry". To me, that is the only solution, without question, no guessing. Open carry is definitely a stop sign. Only a complete moron with an IQ of room temperature would not think more than twice about victimizing someone openly carrying a gun. People aren't safer because conceal carry is legal, only the people carrying concealed are safer. Conceal carry is legal where I live, (open carry is legal too) however, the vast majority is totally ignorant of their gun rights. They don't have a clue, and therefore confrontations are not fewer. Also, the majority, of that ignorant majority, would not own a gun, let alone carry even if they could.

Only those who conceal carry are safer than those who don't. Those who open carry are safer than those who conceal carry. All of those in the presence of the open carrier are safer. The BG's are well aware of the law and the statistics proving the ignorance of the public, to include the majority's fear of guns and attitude toward guns, which brings me back to the STOP SIGN.

 

[maybejim]

Only those who conceal carry are safer than those who don't.

Actually statistics uphold the idea that everyone is safer with concealed carry. Read John Lott's More Guns, Less Crime, or his other book (whose name escapes me at the moment) and you will see those statistics. Crime goes down as Concealed Carry goes up, especially confrontational crime.

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Consider this evidence:

"Murder rates decline when either more women or more men carry concealed handguns, but the effect is especially pronounced for women. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for women by about three to four times more than an additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for men." More Guns, Less Crime. John R. Lott, Jr.
Raw data from the Justice Department’s annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a “stranger rape” with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1% and of victim injury 0.1%, compared to 31% and 40% respectively, for all stranger rapes. For all rapes, women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist, and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun.” (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000)

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The 17 states and the District of Columbia without concealed-carry permits enjoy an 81 percent higher rate of violent crime. Their restrictive gun laws produced 1,400 more murders, 4,200 more rapes, 12,000 more robberies, and 60,000 more aggravated assaults.

 

[AvidshooterTX]

Strong opinions for and against. I know if I could open carry I would not. But if I did I would have a concealed BUG.

 

[Chief_Engineer]

I do hold an Oregon CHL as well as others. At times I will open carry but normally only when fishing or backpacking/camping. If I need to stop at a town or city enroute to where my destination is, if I'm OC then I will continue to be.
Other reasons to have your CHL in Oregon is: 1) You don't have to worry about printing/accidental exposure of gun, 2) Some cities that have banned OC, which the exception of Springfield, cannot be enforced if you have an Oregon CHL. 3) Cars are considered as Public, as recently determined by the Oregon Supreme Court (pistol seen or found by police in passenger area is considered open carry).

Jim

 

[tcox4freedom]

maybejim says that he"guesses that the only solution is legal open and conceal carry and a push to get as many people as possible to just carry". To me, that is the only solution, without question, no guessing. Open carry is definitely a stop sign. Only a complete moron with an IQ of room temperature would not think more than twice about victimizing someone openly carrying a gun. People aren't safer because conceal carry is legal, only the people carrying concealed are safer. Conceal carry is legal where I live, (open carry is legal too) however, the vast majority is totally ignorant of their gun rights. They don't have a clue, and therefore confrontations are not fewer. Also, the majority, of that ignorant majority, would not own a gun, let alone carry even if they could.

Only those who conceal carry are safer than those who don't. Those who open carry are safer than those who conceal carry. All of those in the presence of the open carrier are safer. The BG's are well aware of the law and the statistics proving the ignorance of the public, to include the majority's fear of guns and attitude toward guns, which brings me back to the STOP SIGN.

I'm with you Ringo.

The statistics maybejim cited are correct in the sense that where CC is allowed crime goes down. But, those statistics do NOT support or show any evidence that CC is safer that OC. I also agre with maybejim's assertion that the BEST thing to have happen would be to allow choice when it comes to carrying; then encourage as many people to carry as possible.

It is also a mis-stated belief that OC "only" benefits the carrier. This is simply untrue. A recent situation at a Waffle House in GA seems to support the FACT that being in the presense of a "openly" armed citizen is safer than being around someone who may be "hiding" the fact they have a gun..

By the confession of the BG's involved in the GA situation: They decided NOT to rob the place "because" of the two OC'ers. This leads me to believe that if the two OC'ers had been CC'ing chances are the BG's would have robbed the resturant and all it's patrons; maybe even shooting some of them.

BUT!!!!!

Instead, when the BG's saw two OC'ers they decided "against" robbing the place.

These OC'ers undoubtedly prevented a crime AND protected EVERYONE in the resturaunt that day. Every single person was "SAFER" that day because of two people who were "OPENLY" carrying their firearms.

 

[FN1910]

In reading through this thread one thing occurred to me. If you are OC then the BG will stay away from you and go on to someone else. Therefore you are protecting yourself. However if the BG doesn't know if you are CC or not and suspects that many others are then he may not commit the crime at all. Therefore OC protects you but CC protects everyone. leasantry:

Just a thought. I wish SC would do like TN and allow either OC or CC with a permit. However I am not a big proponent of allowing a 14 year old walk down main street with handgun on his side as long as it is OC like I understand one state allows.

 

[tcox4freedom]

In reading through this thread one thing occurred to me. If you are OC then the BG will stay away from you and go on to someone else. Therefore you are protecting yourself. However if the BG doesn't know if you are CC or not and suspects that many others are then he may not commit the crime at all. Therefore OC protects you but CC protects everyone. leasantry:

The incident in GA seems to confirm the opposite. The bgs saw the guns the OCers had and decided against robbing the resturaunt; thus protecting "everyone" who was there. So citing this particular case, OC was what kept everyone safe.

The bgs is this instance stated that very thing. They saw guns and changed their mind. If they did NOT see guns (aka two CCers); they would have robbed the place and the patrons. (This could have ended very bad for everyone had the OCers not been present.)

Just a thought. I wish SC would do like TN and allow either OC or CC with a permit. However I am not a big proponent of allowing a 14 year old walk down main street with handgun on his side as long as it is OC like I understand one state allows.

I agree with you about SC.

Do you know what state allows a 14yr old to walk down the street with a "HAND" gun?

Before the advent of CC laws, I did carry a handgun in TN and MS at times. But, since the CC laws have been implemented I know of NO state that allows anyone under 18 carry a handgun; UNless they're hunting with an adult.

 

[Ringo]

. However if the BG doesn't know if you are CC or not and suspects that many others are then he may not commit the crime at all. Therefore OC protects you but CC protects everyone. leasantry:

Yea, the BG's won't victimize anyone because they don't know if you're carrying concealed or not, and, suspects that many others are, so therefor everyone's protected. Aah, okay. I guess that's why there's so little crime today, you just never know who's carrying.

 

[maybejim]

. However if the BG doesn't know if you are CC or not and suspects that many others are then he may not commit the crime at all. Therefore OC protects you but CC protects everyone. leasantry:

Yea, the BG's won't victimize anyone because they don't know if you're carrying concealed or not, and, suspects that many others are, so therefor everyone's protected. Aah, okay. I guess that's why there's so little crime today, you just never know who's carrying.

It certainly explains the statistics. But maybe you have a better explanation? I would suggest that everyone interested in pushing the country to following the 2nd Amendment read both books by John Lott. There's a lot of good facts there.

 

[AvidshooterTX]

OC gives you an additional pick-up line too: "What's your caliber?"

 

[maybejim]

OC gives you an additional pick-up line too: "What's your caliber?"

All that would get me is shot by my wife!!

 

[Ringo]

It certainly explains the statistics. But maybe you have a better explanation? I would suggest that everyone interested in pushing the country to following the 2nd Amendment read both books by John Lott. There's a lot of good facts there.

What statistics are you referring to? A better explanation for what? Facts concerning what in particular?

 

[maybejim]

What statistics are you referring to? A better explanation for what? Facts concerning what in particular?

The statistics that show crime, particularly confrontational crime goes down when "shall issue" carry is instituted and continues to go down as more people carry concealed. The two books by John Lott go into it in quite a bit of detail with the most comprehensive study ever done on gun control laws and crime.