Using reloaded hollow points for self defense

[ransom63]

I'm sure this subject has been kicked around for years. I just though it needed another kick.
I reload. I mainly use my reloaded rounds for target practice, but sometimes I'll carry them.
IF the reloaded round is built exactly to the manufacturer's spec., why would there be any kind of legal entangelment if I was engaged in a situation where I had to defend my or my loved one's lives and the bad guy is dispatched? I've heard that a prosecuting lawyer could claim that the rounds were loaded to specifically do excessive harm...well, hell yes!
Have any of you been engaged in a conversation like this?

 

[Phillip Gain]

Here's my opinion.

How good of a reloader are you? Do you trust that the brass you're using is of equal quality to new brass from the manufacturer? Do you trust that your reloading equipment performs as well as or better than the manufacturer's original loading equipment? Do you trust that your skills are equal to or greater than the skills of the manufacturer? These are the questions you have to ask yourself.

Do you trust your life - and the life of your loved ones - to ammunition that you, as a hobbyist, have loaded?

As for the prosecution using against you the fact that you loaded the ammunition yourself...maybe. My belief is that if the shooting is a clear-cut case of self defense, it's not likely to even get as far as a courtroom. If it DOES get that far...then the prosecutor believes there is reason to prosecute you, and will use EVERY TRICK HE CAN THINK OF to paint you as a bad guy...whether it be your choice of ammunition, the appearance of your firearm, use of high capacity magazines, the clothes you wear, the cut of your hair, past posts on gun forums, attendance at "militant" firearms training courses...ANYTHING IS FAIR GAME.

It's a fact that the things that will work in your favor in a lethal force confrontation, are often the same things that will work against you in a court of law, if your claim of self-defense is not clear-cut.

This is serious business. I kid you not.

 

[astute]

I agree with the first answer to your question. I would like to add, HANDLOADS are notoriously unreliable. No matter how good you are or how accurate you try to be, things can and do go wrong with problems like contaminated primer and powder. brass length and strength and other things that can and do go wrong. At the range problems are easy to correct and continue on, but in a life saving situation, I for one trust the reliability of my ammo to top of line, premium grade factory ammo. Most brands will all perform as needed with little difference. The thing is they are all RELIABLE.
Do yourself a favor and save your reloads for practice and find a brand and style you feel comfortable with. I won't even give you my opinion on brands cause what I like the next guy will say mine's better followed by more mine's better. The fact is any quality, premium ammo is good. Whatever you decide on will be the best for you.
A good rule of thumb is find out what your local law enforcement carries and carry the same.

Good Luck

 

[kerstingm]

I have heard this over and over again ever since I got my CCW, and now that I have started reloading I think
even more. One question (like Philip stated if it does make it to a court room) is how will anybody be able to
if the ammo is or has been reloaded once it has been fired? I am sure if there was an instance for Self-Defense
everything and anything you have ever done will be looked into. With all of this to think about and anything
that might give anyone the slightest thing to try to come back on me I have decided just to use factory
defensive rounds for now. Thanks for posting this thread I will really like to see what other replys show up on it. I would really like to see some input from an attorney or police officer.

 

[SGB]

A good shoot is a good shoot. The reloaded ammo argument is pure hypothetical BS. If you feel confident in your loads and are willing to trust your life to them more power to you.

 

[BigSlick]

A good shoot is a good shoot. The reloaded ammo argument is pure hypothetical BS. If you feel confident in your loads and are willing to trust your life to them more power to you.

I agree. If you are in a lawful shoot then it won't matter. If the kind of ammo could be called into question then a prosecutor could make the same argument as to the type of gun (caliber) you used.

 

[S&W645]

I agree. If you are in a lawful shoot then it won't matter. If the kind of ammo could be called into question then a prosecutor could make the same argument as to the type of gun (caliber) you used.

And some will. This was on tv last night and Mas said not to use reloads as the DA will try the rounds and see if they are different from round to round. If factory ammo, not much they can say. If reloads that vary, then they might try to say you did it on purpose. Just like if you use +P or +P+ they might say that it showed intent. And really, if I have 230 gr JHPs +P .45 ACP rounds in the gun, don't you think my intent is to stop any attacks in the fastest way possible?

 

[Bighouse Doc]

I agree with the first answer to your question. I would like to add, HANDLOADS are notoriously unreliable. No matter how good you are or how accurate you try to be, things can and do go wrong with problems like contaminated primer and powder. brass length and strength and other things that can and do go wrong. At the range problems are easy to correct and continue on, but in a life saving situation, I for one trust the reliability of my ammo to top of line, premium grade factory ammo. Most brands will all perform as needed with little difference. The thing is they are all RELIABLE.
Do yourself a favor and save your reloads for practice and find a brand and style you feel comfortable with. I won't even give you my opinion on brands cause what I like the next guy will say mine's better followed by more mine's better. The fact is any quality, premium ammo is good. Whatever you decide on will be the best for you.
A good rule of thumb is find out what your local law enforcement carries and carry the same.

Good Luck

Speak for your own handloads dude!

-Doc

 

[Bighouse Doc]

I fear this myth originated with the ammo industry. The object is probably to increase ammo sales.

Mas says it, he isn't God on this. I am sure he has a couple of industry sponsors too. correct me if I am wrong.

-Doc

 

[Punch]

We must have some horrible reloaders on this forum given the fear over reloads. When I hunt or for personal defense, I load my own ammunition because it is MY life, and I trust my own work more than some nameless faceless factory worker. Too many times handloads get a bad reputation because of all of the guys that load off of progressive presses for "practice" ammo, or just plain do not know what they are doing. A true carefully loaded handload with high quality components is at least the equal to a factory load, and more often better. This is particularly true when you own a chronograph and have the opportunity to see what really works out of YOUR pistol, not a factory universal reciever.

I carry factory ammunition when I have not had time to reload, or when I cannot get the components that I need for a quality load. I have even purchased factory ammunition and pulled the bullets for use in handloads (before some of the better ones were available as components). I only do this when I cannot get the factory ammunition to group well, or if it is uneven over the chronograph (not uncommon).

As to the legal ramifications of using handloads, I think that this has pretty much been debunked on every forum that I have been on. One gunwriter from the anti gun East Coast made mention of a case such as this, and the legend went from there. I have lived in a lot of different jurisdiction (mostly in the Midwest) and every law enforcement officer that I have spoken to has said that they are unaware of anytime the issue has even come up. If you life is really in danger, you are justified in using any means at your disposal to deal with the situation. If it is not a "good" shoot, what bullet you used is the least of your problems.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I'm sure this subject has been kicked around for years. I just though it needed another kick.

Why?

Here's my opinion.

How good of a reloader are you? Do you trust that the brass you're using is of equal quality to new brass from the manufacturer? Do you trust that your reloading equipment performs as well as or better than the manufacturer's original loading equipment? Do you trust that your skills are equal to or greater than the skills of the manufacturer? These are the questions you have to ask yourself.

Do you trust your life - and the life of your loved ones - to ammunition that you, as a hobbyist, have loaded?

I agree with the first answer to your question. I would like to add, HANDLOADS are notoriously unreliable. No matter how good you are or how accurate you try to be, things can and do go wrong with problems like contaminated primer and powder. brass length and strength and other things that can and do go wrong. At the range problems are easy to correct and continue on, but in a life saving situation, I for one trust the reliability of my ammo to top of line, premium grade factory ammo. Most brands will all perform as needed with little difference. The thing is they are all RELIABLE.

I must be doing something wrong. My handloads, once I have worked-up a specific load, have always been more reliable and accurate than any factory ammo I have ever shot. I do handload my self-defense carry rounds more carefully than range ammo, but how hard is it to triple check every step when making up a batch of 11 rounds? Does the ammunition factory weigh each powder charge on a digital scale checked with a check weight before and after a batch of 11 rounds? Does the ammunition factory hand check the proper seating of every primer in each piece of brass? Does the ammunition factory measure the OAL of each round produced? Does the ammunition factory visually inspect each powder charge for detectable problems with the powder? Does the ammunition factory visually inspect each and every piece of empty brass for foriegn debris before loading? I'll bet the answer to each and every one of those questions is no. But there is no reason for the handloader not to when making up a batch of 11 rounds for self-defense carry.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

Why?





I must be doing something wrong. My handloads, once I have worked-up a specific load, have always been more reliable and accurate than any factory ammo I have ever shot. I do handload my self-defense carry rounds more carefully than range ammo, but how hard is it to triple check every step when making up a batch of 11 rounds? Does the ammunition factory weigh each powder charge on a digital scale checked with a check weight before and after a batch of 11 rounds? Does the ammunition factory hand check the proper seating of every primer in each piece of brass? Does the ammunition factory measure the OAL of each round produced? Does the ammunition factory visually inspect each powder charge for detectable problems with the powder? Does the ammunition factory visually inspect each and every piece of empty brass for foriegn debris before loading? I'll bet the answer to each and every one of those questions is no. But there is no reason for the handloader not to when making up a batch of 11 rounds for self-defense carry.

Perfectly said!

-Doc

 

[NavyLCDR]

Something else to consider... what ammo do benchrest competition shooters use when every shot counts and a fraction of a fraction of an inch in shot placement can mean the difference between winning or losing a match? Do they slice open that box of factory ammo for their matches? Or do they use their handloaded ammo because it is better and more reliable than factory?

 

[Phillip Gain]

One question (like Philip stated if it does make it to a court room) is how will anybody be able to tell if the ammo is or has been reloaded once it has been fired?

I am pretty sure forensics experts can differentiate between handloads and factory loads even after the rounds have been fired. Trajectory, type of bullet, depth of penetration, condition of brass, etc.

But even if I'm wrong, and they can only tell with unfired rounds...you would have to fire off ALL your ammunition - not just what's in the magazine but what's in your spare magazine(s) too - in order for the forensics folks to not be able to tell the difference. That might make for a messy scene, which (again) could be used against you should things ever go to court.

Oh, by the way - let's not forget about the spare box or two of "handloaded defense ammo" you keep in your lockbox or safe, which the police will find when they search your home and confiscate your arms. (Again - if it's a clear case of self defense this isn't likely..but we're talking about one where the circumstances are not clear-cut.) If this ammo is compared to what was in your gun or what was dug out of the bad guy on the slab...then the forensics folks can conclude you were using handloads.

 

[Phillip Gain]

I agree. If you are in a lawful shoot then it won't matter. If the kind of ammo could be called into question then a prosecutor could make the same argument as to the type of gun (caliber) you used.

I disagree. It's not so much whether the shoot was lawful. It's whether or not it is obvious to the responding officers, that it was lawful.

An example: A guy tries to mug you by pointing a gun from inside his jacket pocket. You lawfully shoot to defend yourself.

Police arrive on scene. The neighbors and witnesses can only testify that they saw you shoot the guy. There is no gun, because he was using the "finger in pocket" trick. Upon recovery from surgery, he SWEARS that you pulled your gun and tried to rob him, then shot him when he resisted.

Guess what? Good chance this is going to court. The prosecutor has no real evidence of anything other than the fact you shot this guy. He's going to talk about the kind of gun you had, the type of bullets you used, the caliber of bullets you used, EVERYTHING he can think of to paint you as a crazed killer and make his case, because HE WANTS TO WIN THE TRIAL.

We each must understand that while better tools make for a stronger defense of self...they MAY also be fuel for your prosecution, if the situation is not clear-cut.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

Again, all theoretical speculation. Despite multitudes of searching, there is no set of cases where people were prosecuted because of handloaded ammo.

-Doc

 

[BigSlick]

I disagree. It's not so much whether the shoot was lawful. It's whether or not it is obvious to the responding officers, that it was lawful.

An example: A guy tries to mug you by pointing a gun from inside his jacket pocket. You lawfully shoot to defend yourself.

Police arrive on scene. The neighbors and witnesses can only testify that they saw you shoot the guy. There is no gun, because he was using the "finger in pocket" trick. Upon recovery from surgery, he SWEARS that you pulled your gun and tried to rob him, then shot him when he resisted.

Guess what? Good chance this is going to court. The prosecutor has no real evidence of anything other than the fact you shot this guy. He's going to talk about the kind of gun you had, the type of bullets you used, the caliber of bullets you used, EVERYTHING he can think of to paint you as a crazed killer and make his case, because HE WANTS TO WIN THE TRIAL.

We each must understand that while better tools make for a stronger defense of self...they MAY also be fuel for your prosecution, if the situation is not clear-cut.

I guess by that reasoning we are all screwed anyway thanks to the over zealous prosecutor that we may or many not face in court for defending ourselves. I guess we should just sell all of our guns/ammo and retreat from society all together.

 

[Keykutter]

I love SC. If someone threatens to kill you, you can assume they mean it and if you believe that there is a gun in their pocket, you are within your rights to shoot.

Shootings that I have thought questionable myself have been given a pass here in SC.

You've heard the Sherrif's advice here as of late, right?

This is a good place to be to feel safe in your own defense.

I am hoping it also restricts the BG's in that they know they may face a bullet.

KK

 

[Phillip Gain]

I guess by that reasoning we are all screwed anyway thanks to the over zealous prosecutor that we may or many not face in court for defending ourselves. I guess we should just sell all of our guns/ammo and retreat from society all together.

That is not at all what I said. Let me boil it down a little further:

1) It is incredibly important to make sure you are justified before you draw your gun and fire. More important than small choices like trigger pull weight, handloads vs factory, magazine capacity, etc.

2) If you DO have to shoot, and the situation is not clear cut, the prosecution can and will use anything possible to paint you as the bad guy. This is something to keep in mind when you make your choices.

Speaking for myself...I carry my M&P 45 with 30 rounds total of ammunition. (10 rounds in the gun, 20 in 2 spare magazines. I use factory loaded ammunition, Remington Golden Saber +P, but am thinking of changing over to Hornady Critical Defense. My gun has had a trigger job. Massachusetts mandates that any handgun with less than 2 actions from safe to fire be sold with a 10 pound trigger...but I had mine reduced to 6.5 lbs.

One thing I did change - I used to carry up to 60 rounds (10 in the gun, 20 on the belt, and up to 3 more magazines in various pockets according to the layers I was wearing). I figured that if I ever had to shoot in self-defense, and had to go on trial afterwards, that quantity of ammunition could be considered excessive.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

And once again, all this is theoretical speculation. Please correct me ifI am wrong, but there is no defining body of statutory/case law to support any of this!

-Doc