Two school shootings this week....

[ezkl2230]

Two school KILLINGS this week....

The week of October 26, 2013.


First, Nevada. Two days later, a Massachusetts teacher is murdered on school grounds.

"...there are really only two choices for protecting open societies from attacks like the one on Westgate mall where so-called 'soft targets' are hit: either create secure perimeters around the locations or allow civilians to carry their own guns to protect themselves.
'Societies have to think about how they're going to approach the problem,' Noble said. 'One is to say we want an armed citizenry; you can see the reason for that. Another is to say the enclaves are so secure that in order to get into the soft target you're going to have to pass through extraordinary security...

How do you protect soft targets? That's really the challenge. You can't have armed police forces everywhere...


What I'm saying is it makes police around the world question their views on gun control. It makes citizens question their views on gun control. You have to ask yourself, 'Is an armed citizenry more necessary now than it was in the past with an evolving threat...'"
Ron K. Noble, Secretary General, Interpol
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Providing "extraordinary security" for schools is a practical and financial impossibility. It is too expensive, and there have been cases where school shootings take place outside the buildings where metal detectors and bag searches are going to find nothing. Half-mile gun free zones around schools have stopped nothing.


It is time to admit that the gun free school zones experiment, which has been ongoing for over twenty years, is a complete and utter failure and let teachers, staff, and parents defend themselves and their students.


Period.


This IS the common sense approach.

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[kelcarry]

All this has nothing to do with gun control and has everything to do with juvenile and adult behavior--something that is NOT legislatable (if there is such a word). Liberals and dems and progressives and communists etal are only interested in government control and your behavior, before the fact cannot be controlled, especially if you are insane or unbalanced in some way. Owning a firearm is a finite real thing and, therefore is controllable--the human mind and its thought process is not. Not sure if arming teachers and/or supervisors is a great idea--firstly--more costs for already burdened school systems and a virtual nightmare of conflicting entities when police arrive at scene and have seconds to wonder whether that agitated ill trained adult is an adversary or the BG. A school security officer(s) and secure access, which is time consuming (how long do you wait to get on a plane?) are a moderate solution.

 

[ezkl2230]

All this has nothing to do with gun control and has everything to do with juvenile and adult behavior--something that is NOT legislatable (if there is such a word). Liberals and dems and progressives and communists etal are only interested in government control and your behavior, before the fact cannot be controlled, especially if you are insane or unbalanced in some way. Owning a firearm is a finite real thing and, therefore is controllable--the human mind and its thought process is not. Not sure if arming teachers and/or supervisors is a great idea--firstly--more costs for already burdened school systems and a virtual nightmare of conflicting entities when police arrive at scene and have seconds to wonder whether that agitated ill trained adult is an adversary or the BG. A school security officer(s) and secure access, which is time consuming (how long do you wait to get on a plane?) are a moderate solution.

And until you can find a way to control the uncontrollable, you have to let people defend themselves. Telling them they cannot carry in self defense in a prescribed area is the very definition of gun control.

 

[S&W645]

And as the police have no duty to protect you the individual, that pretty much makes the GFZs illegal.

 

[bhadcock]

My thoughts are that when you look at all of the cases where a school shooting has occurred, 99% of the time we find out that the shooter has been, was or is a student or past student who is on some sort of medication for depression, psychosis, ADHD or whatever it may be. The problem arises when parents want to school to raise our kids and not taking responsibility of their own to do it themselves. I have young kids in school and one of my daughters is very hyper active and I know if I took her to a doctor they would prescribe her a medicine to calm her down. I work a full time job as well as a part time business and my wife works a small business too and yet we have time to be parents with our kids. I take my kids running with me or we exercise together and guess what it helps burn off her energy and she has been doing better at school. Me and my wife restrict what our kids watch on t.v which is very minimal anyways, we sit down with them and help them with homework, we are not perfect and I know there are a lot of parents who have different living situations but when you come down to the brass tax of things if comes down to the parents of these kids raising them correctly and not letting society, t.v. , the internet, video games to raise them for us, when society raises our kids you get what you see on the news about children getting killed at school because they were on meds, played violent video games...etc... Our government turns a blind eye to the real problem and focuses only on gun control as the issue when these tragic events happen.

 

[dogshawred]

GFZ don't work, going armed can.

The quote "An armed society is a polite society" gives meaning to the current fight about gun control. With the down grade of mental health care available there are more people in need of help in mainstream society, with people resisting treatment so not to be labeled for any number of reasons there are more people in need of help that won't seek it because of the ramifications that go along with the treatment.
~
This places upon society the greater need to be prepared to defend one's self and their loved ones, there has always been that requirement but today's society and those in society that would do you harm have heightened our need to present a defensive posture. In order to maintain that posture we must fight all attempts by any government level in the country of restricting further our ability to protect ourselves defensively.
~
Maintaining a defensive posture will not work in a society that imposes GFZ's willy nilly on places that the public congregate for what ever reason. We all know from history that these are killing grounds for anyone that wants to inflict harm against society, society has a right to be safe anywhere they may travel and they will not be safe without being armed and prepared to defend themselves. People who wish us harm do not follow the laws in place to so call protect us and with that said I refer to my quote "An armed society is a polite society".

 

[BluesStringer]

All this has nothing to do with gun control

Legislated, mandated and punishable by fines and imprisonment or both laws creating GFZs have "nothing to do with gun control???" Come on man. How can you pass that off as valid commentary on GFZs?

Not sure if arming teachers and/or supervisors is a great idea--firstly--more costs for already burdened school systems....

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but generally-speaking, jurisdictions that are contemplating lessening or eliminating the prohibitions in GFZ laws are not going to incur any expense, because all they're trying to accomplish is allowing citizens who happen to be employees in schools to carry while at work. The goal is to get government out of prohibiting that which "shall not be infringed," not to create another layer of paid quasi-law-enforcement types, or a beauracracy to oversee the teachers, administrators and even janitors who will be doing nothing more nefarious than exercising their right to defend themselves, the students who are in their charge, and their communities and states, exactly as contemplated by the Framers who wrote the 2nd Amendment.

....and a virtual nightmare of conflicting entities when police arrive at scene and have seconds to wonder whether that agitated ill trained adult is an adversary or the BG.

Wow. This is an impossible obstacle to overcome? First of all, in nearly every case in schools, the shooting is over before the cops get there, or the shooter offs himself when he sees/hears them arrive. Secondly, for the rare cases where that's not true and it's still an active shooter scenario when the cops get there, there is no reason that a system of identification can't be coordinated between LE and school employees, like maybe requiring armed employees to put a lanyard style employee ID hanging off their necks, or a prearranged password, or disaster-plan training that instructs the employees how and where to shelter in place when the cops get there - whatever - it isn't an insurmountable issue where cooperative people can't figure out how to identify themselves. How do plain clothes detectives do it when their uniformed backup arrives on scene?

I just don't get why anyone would go looking for excuses to deny willing and able people the ability to protect themselves and the children in the schools where they're employed. It makes no logical sense to me at all.

A school security officer(s) and secure access, which is time consuming (how long do you wait to get on a plane?) are a moderate solution.

And allowing permission-slip-holders to carry the same weapon they're going to strap on as soon as they leave the school while at work is an "extreme" solution I suppose?

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" Barry Goldwater - 1964.

"Moderate" solution to child-killing. Pffft.

Blues

 

[CoolClownFish]

I carry in my kids school all the time. in Utah, it is legal for CCW permit holders to carry concealed in "Public" schools. However I would suggest that you do this responsibly as all it takes is for one person or kid to yell "GUN" to cause you a huge hours long headache dealing with police and such.

 

[BluesStringer]

I carry in my kids school all the time. in Utah, it is legal for CCW permit holders to carry concealed in "Public" schools. However I would suggest that you do this responsibly as all it takes is for one person or kid to yell "GUN" to cause you a huge hours long headache dealing with police and such.

Are your school's employees allowed to carry during work hours?

 

[CoolClownFish]

Are your school's employees allowed to carry during work hours?

I would assume so but I do not know for sure. I would also assume it's the school district that is stopping them if any.

Here is what is on Link Removed

As a permit holder, exactly, where can I carry or not carry a handgun? The concealed firearm permit allows an individual to carry a firearm fully loaded and concealed. The permit also allows an individual to carry a firearm into public schools. Permit holders can not carry a firearm into federal or state restricted areas i.e. any airport secured area, federal facilities, courts, correctional & mental health facilities, law enforcement secured areas, a house of worship or private residence where notice given and/or posted, any secured area in which firearms are prohibited and notice posted, or otherwise prohibited by state of federal law.

There is a lot more info on there about other situations too if your interested.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

This is why I won't fly anymore...

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Sent from behind Enemy Lines.

 

[Warbirds]

The teacher in Mass was killed with a box cutter not a firearm.

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[docmath]

I believe that ANY teacher that has the proper training, and handles a gun responsibly should be able to carry on the job with a CHL, of course. If a would be criminal doesn't know if a teacher is armed or not, he/she may have 2nd thoughts about shooting up a classroom. Most of of these lunatics end up killing themselves in the end anyways so why not spare them the trouble! When they draw a weapon in a classroom, a well trained, quick minded teacher can protect the children. This, what I consider to be idiotic idea of having a safe in the classroom gives the teacher NO time to react..."Wait mr. I'm an insane shooter, give me a minute to open this safe, so I can pull out a gun and shoot you", is the dumbest thing I think I've heard in a long time, not to mention the cost and training. You might as well leave it like it is, because the teacher doesn't stand a chance. I'm not saying to be cocked and locked with 1 in the chamber, but at least have the firearm on your person. With practice, it can be pulled, racked and fired in less than 10 seconds...I know because I do it. It took a lot of practice to get there. Even 10 seconds may be a little too long, but it beats the alternative. I'm not a believer in keeping one in the chamber, too much can go wrong, especially with a room full of children.

 

[ezkl2230]

The teacher in Mass was killed with a box cutter not a firearm.

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And this changes things how? The fact is whether it's guns or knives, weapons free zones stop nothing.

 

[Warbirds]

And this changes things how? The fact is whether it's guns or knives, weapons free zones stop nothing.

The title of the post is "Two school shootings......." should we make it ten to get your point across or just mindlessly repeat incorrect information like idiots. If it is going to be discussed then we need correct information, so yes it does matter.

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[ezkl2230]

...With practice, it can be pulled, racked and fired in less than 10 seconds...I know because I do it. It took a lot of practice to get there. Even 10 seconds may be a little too long, but it beats the alternative. I'm not a believer in keeping one in the chamber, too much can go wrong, especially with a room full of children.

According to the 30 foot rule you're dead in less than 10 seconds if somebody with a knife comes after you and you still have to draw, rack, aim and fire. There's something in your line of reasoning that I fail to understand. I can carry my firearm all day long with one in the chamber and nobody becomes too concerned about that until I step foot in a classroom. Then, suddenly, there is too much that can go wrong. I carry in my home, my vehicle, my garage, around my wife and children and nobody is too concerned about what could go wrong. There is no greater danger of something going wrong in a classroom while I carry than there is around my own family with whom I spend far more time, and frankly I am getting tired of the argument that somehow the common sense of legal carriers goes out the window the moment they step foot in a school.

 

[CoolClownFish]

The teacher in Mass was killed with a box cutter not a firearm.

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Careful, That may have been a High (Razor) Capacity box cutter. Don't want the anti-gunners getting too much thought in their heads.

 

[CoolClownFish]

I believe that ANY teacher that has the proper training, and handles a gun responsibly should be able to carry on the job with a CHL, of course. If a would be criminal doesn't know if a teacher is armed or not, he/she may have 2nd thoughts about shooting up a classroom. Most of of these lunatics end up killing themselves in the end anyways so why not spare them the trouble! When they draw a weapon in a classroom, a well trained, quick minded teacher can protect the children. This, what I consider to be idiotic idea of having a safe in the classroom gives the teacher NO time to react..."Wait mr. I'm an insane shooter, give me a minute to open this safe, so I can pull out a gun and shoot you", is the dumbest thing I think I've heard in a long time, not to mention the cost and training. You might as well leave it like it is, because the teacher doesn't stand a chance. I'm not saying to be cocked and locked with 1 in the chamber, but at least have the firearm on your person. With practice, it can be pulled, racked and fired in less than 10 seconds...I know because I do it. It took a lot of practice to get there. Even 10 seconds may be a little too long, but it beats the alternative. I'm not a believer in keeping one in the chamber, too much can go wrong, especially with a room full of children.

According to the 30 foot rule you're dead in less than 10 seconds if somebody with a knife comes after you and you still have to draw, rack, aim and fire. There's something in your line of reasoning that I fail to understand. I can carry my firearm all day long with one in the chamber and nobody becomes too concerned about that until I stepped foot in a classroom. Then, suddenly, there is too much that can go wrong. I carry in my home, my vehicle, my garage, around my wife and children and nobody is too concerned about what could go wrong. There is no greater danger of something going wrong in a classroom while I carry than there is around my own family with whom I spend far more time, and frankly I am getting tired of the argument that somehow the common sense of legal carriers goes out the window the moment they step foot in a school.

I can see both of your points. I choose to carry based on how and what I carry. Don't make sense? lol What I mean is, I own several guns that I alternate. I have a Dbl A Revolver that you do not need to worry about, it is point and shoot, nuff said. I also have a SA 1911 ultra compact that I would NEVER carry with one in the chamber and the hammer back.... Reason for that is the trigger spring is a softer spring for when I go shooting therefore if the ambi-safety was to ever get bumped to off, Then I'm one hurtin SOB or dead. I also have (When SA decides to send it back) an XDs that I DO carry with one in the chamber because it is all stock and less likely to go off with the holster I use. it all comes down to what the carrier feels is safe. About the teachers carrying, If it protects my children while I am not there then I am all for it. But if it puts them in danger then I will speak up. I'm sure that there will be the norm of safety protocols if and when Teachers and other school officials are allowed to carry during school hrs but it is up to us parents to make sure it is being done properly since it is our kids that will be there all day.

My thought: Safes are for storing items. You will benefit nothing by keeping a loaded firearm in the safe unless you have extremely quick access to it. If a firearm is kept on the Teachers person at all times it is likely it will not fall into the hands of a student (ie... not in a purse or a desk drawer). Carrying with one in the chamber should be the carriers opinion and nobody elses. I do feel that since there are accidentally lost firearms from time to time there should be some sort of protocol to try and avoid that from happening on school grounds. It would really suck to loose your firearm on a school campus only to find out a child picked it up and hurt themselves or someone else with it. and last but not least it should be mandatory that the teachers that choose to carry get enough range time and training if needed. This will not only ease the minds of the "I Don't Know" people but it will help insure that nobody is a victim of a stray bullet. Again this is my opinion. Thanks for reading.

 

[ezkl2230]

The title of the post is "Two school shootings......." should we make it ten to get your point across or just mindlessly repeat incorrect information like idiots. If it is going to be discussed then we need correct information, so yes it does matter.

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My bad. The thread title has been corrected.

 

[ezkl2230]

The teacher in Mass was killed with a box cutter not a firearm.

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My apologies; when I posted this thread, the method of her death had not yet been made public. The one report I heard early on seemed to indicate that this had been another shooting. The title of this thread has been changed to more accurately reflect two killing incidents instead of two shooting incidents.

But as I noted in another posting on this thread, whether the instrument of death was a gun or a knife, it once agains proves that declaring a place weapons free actually stops nothing.