To the Rabid Anti-Open Carriers

[IOC]

Rabid, contemptuous and abusive persons who portray themselves as CCers and jump at every opportunity to malign and denigrate OCers just for the fact that they OC, leads me to believe that they are wolves in sheepdog clothing.
I’m not talking to CCers who oppose OC for tactical or personal reasons; I’m talking to those who fervently assail and use vile names and slurs to attack OCers.

The fanatical OCers I have met personally don’t even CC, they are NRA members who hunt and don’t believe that anything other than a shotgun in the home is necessary. In my opinion, they are anti 2nd Amendment surrogates or undercover plants who have duped other CCers into joining them in their tirade. This type of anti-OCer does more damage to our gun-rights than all of the anti-gun groups combined.

Their favorite tactic is to find an offensive OCer and use that one person to label an entire community. There are 45 states that allow OC and the overwhelming majority of the 10’s of thousands of patriots who OC, are upstanding, average citizens who dress sharply and maintain a pleasant demeanor in an effort to win the hearts and minds of those who haven’t made a decision, or who are on the fence, to the pro-2nd Amendment, pro-gun movement.

Don’t tolerate insurgents in your groups who publicly oppose and protest this legal patriotic activity. They are either totally oblivious to the consequences of their thoughtless actions or undercover agents of anti-gun groups.

You are free to quote or re-post this.

Tony Snesko, Founder
Idaho Carry, Open & Concealed
[email protected]

 

[Bikenut]

A rant..

Alas... there are many within the gun community who purport to support the right to keep and bear arms but who really only support keeping and bearing arms in ways they personally think are "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable" never understanding that perspective is exactly the same perspective of the anti gunner. The rabid anti gunner wants to control all guns because he doesn't like guns at all.... but the gun owning anti gunner "lite" only wants to control the guns he doesn't like and the methods of carry he doesn't like in places he doesn't think guns should be by people he doesn't think are as special has he is so they shouldn't be "allowed"........

But it's easy to spot an anti gunner pro gun control person....

They all have the same attitude of:

"I want to be the one in control of who, where, why, how, and when, people are allowed to have and/or carry guns."

End rant...

 

[Axeanda45]

Bikenut, lately you have saved me soooooo much typing (because you type what I want to say) that I hardly post anymore.....

 

[telpinaro]

Good one. Heck, to the rabid-anti-any-type-of-carry-er...

I CC, simply because that's how I feel comfortable carrying. Plus, I have a kid to get home to, and if some scared anti calls the cops on me, I don't have time to stand around defending my rights to police or people who think guns are scary (have yet to see one OC'er outside of a gun shop), I gotta get back before the bus does. I get the crime deterring aspect of OC-ing and think it's great. Maybe some day I'll want to switch, but for now I prefer CC. I shouldn't have to defend that or get in to an argument about it, and neither should someone who prefers OC. I'm all for rational discussions about the benefits of each, but nothing should go beyond friendly debate.

 

[tcox4freedom]

Good one. Heck, to the rabid-anti-any-type-of-carry-er...

I CC, simply because that's how I feel comfortable carrying. Plus, I have a kid to get home to, and if some scared anti calls the cops on me, I don't have time to stand around defending my rights to police or people who think guns are scary (have yet to see one OC'er outside of a gun shop), I gotta get back before the bus does. I get the crime deterring aspect of OC-ing and think it's great. Maybe some day I'll want to switch, but for now I prefer CC. I shouldn't have to defend that or get in to an argument about it, and neither should someone who prefers OC. I'm all for rational discussions about the benefits of each, but nothing should go beyond friendly debate.

This is a good, truthful & legitimate reason to CC instead of OC. I don't think any OC'er we have on this forum would have any objections to someone being truthful about their feelings related to CC over OC.

Personally, I don't have any problem whatsoever with someone who says I feel more comfortable CC'ing; so that's why I don't like OC. I think what gets most OC proponents bent out of shape is the holier than thou attitudes of antis as they spew out false or made up statistics on why CC is better than OC.

OC was my initial way to carry when I was younger. But, I haven't been able to legally OC for decades. Unfortunately, we don't have OC here. But, I do hope that will soon change.

-

 

[telpinaro]

This is a good, truthful & legitimate reason to CC instead of OC. I don't think any OC'er we have on this forum would have any objections to someone being truthful about their feelings related to CC over OC.

Personally, I don't have any problem whatsoever with someone who says I feel more comfortable CC'ing; so that's why I don't like OC. I think what gets most OC proponents bent out of shape is the holier than thou attitudes of antis as they spew out false or made up statistics on why CC is better than OC.

OC was my initial way to carry when I was younger. But, I haven't been able to legally OC for decades. Unfortunately, we don't have OC here. But, I do hope that will soon change.

-

I've run in to people who think I'm an idiot who say that's not a "legitimate" reason because there aren't any facts in there (not on this forum, thankfully!). And I'm with you... I don't care which side you're going for... If you're going to use numbers... check them! Nothing bugs me more in any argument than made up or out-of context "facts."

 

[SR40c]

Never have understood the open carry vs conceal carry toxicity. Just makes no sense what so ever.

 

[IOC]

A rant..

Alas... there are many within the gun community who purport to support the right to keep and bear arms but who really only support keeping and bearing arms in ways they personally think are "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable" never understanding that perspective is exactly the same perspective of the anti gunner. The rabid anti gunner wants to control all guns because he doesn't like guns at all.... but the gun owning anti gunner "lite" only wants to control the guns he doesn't like and the methods of carry he doesn't like in places he doesn't think guns should be by people he doesn't think are as special has he is so they shouldn't be "allowed"........

But it's easy to spot an anti gunner pro gun control person....

They all have the same attitude of:

"I want to be the one in control of who, where, why, how, and when, people are allowed to have and/or carry guns."

End rant...

I couldn't have said it better Bikenut, may I quote you in future posts (giving you the credit of course). What kind of bike do you have?

 

[Bikenut]

I couldn't have said it better Bikenut, may I quote you in future posts (giving you the credit of course). What kind of bike do you have?

I would hope anyone and everyone who finds value in any of my posts would use what I have said anywhere and everywhere on.. and off... the 'net whether they actually quote me or not.

During my riding career I have owned many bikes although I really don't know how many. I do know but it had to be more than 80 and perhaps less than 100. I collected some, had a couple on display in a museum for a while, rode most of them... year 'round too because Michigan's snow and ice were just another challenge, played on race tracks... my shoe soles were always ground down on the outside edge and so was my little toe from time to time, and crashed entirely too many of them. Did you know it is possible to sorta steer yourself away from hitting stuff using your elbows and feet against the pavement after you have crashed (wear leathers for that!)? My sons and I had a stunt team for a few years putting on stunt shows too with my youngest boy doing stunts at the tender age of 11. Good times with my sons... precious memories of time with my boys well spent. But I got old and I don't have any bikes now. My boys have a couple of them and the others were sold.

But make no mistake... none of that makes me any more special than anyone else. There are others who have lived lives much more interesting. It isn't what we do in life that is important.... it is if we put all we have into enjoying what we do that makes life worth living.

 

[buckey01]

Iowa does allow open carry; but I carry concealed because I feel more comfortable that way. I really don't care what anyone else does, since it's their right and none of my business. I personally don't like feeling that I'm the center of attention.

Iowa is a cold state and open carry is not practical for 2/3 of the year anyway; since too much clothing is required in order to stay warm. I also have quite few tattoos; and in the summer I feel a little self conscious. I live on a farm in a very rural area. Everyone around knows me but I still don't like undue attention. I'm pretty sure that no one cares about the tattoos or open carry. It's just my preference. I also worry that if there was trouble, open carry might make me the first target of the bad guys.

 

[davcommander]

Well said. I both CC and OC. I will CC at work and OC almost everywhere else. The other day while standing in the check out line at a local grocery store, I was OCing. Standing behind me was a young couple with a child. I heard the young lady make a comment about my OC and said, "that's why I don't like OC." I turned to face her and ask what exactly about my OC that offended her. She came back with the standard litany of safety issues. I started by saying I respect your point of view but it is unfortunately misinformed. I started by showing her that my gun, a Ruger SR40c was very secure in the holster. I showed her that it could not be pulled out very easily by anybody. (I was wearing a Serpa). I then explained to her the laws in the state of OK govern who can OC and in what circumstances. In other words that not just anybody could OC. I also stated that most people that OC have had additional training beyond the state minimum in regards to use, and proper control of the weapon. I am not sure that I made a difference in her opinion, but I hope she at least may be a little less concerned.
Those that bother me most about OC are those that are doing it to make a point and try to cause confrontation because they are trying to change people's opinion about OC. In reality what happens is more people become hardened towards OC and try to restrict us even more.

 

[Bikenut]

Well said. I both CC and OC. I will CC at work and OC almost everywhere else. The other day while standing in the check out line at a local grocery store, I was OCing. Standing behind me was a young couple with a child. I heard the young lady make a comment about my OC and said, "that's why I don't like OC." I turned to face her and ask what exactly about my OC that offended her. She came back with the standard litany of safety issues. I started by saying I respect your point of view but it is unfortunately misinformed. I started by showing her that my gun, a Ruger SR40c was very secure in the holster. I showed her that it could not be pulled out very easily by anybody. (I was wearing a Serpa). I then explained to her the laws in the state of OK govern who can OC and in what circumstances. In other words that not just anybody could OC. I also stated that most people that OC have had additional training beyond the state minimum in regards to use, and proper control of the weapon. I am not sure that I made a difference in her opinion, but I hope she at least may be a little less concerned.
Those that bother me most about OC are those that are doing it to make a point and try to cause confrontation because they are trying to change people's opinion about OC. In reality what happens is more people become hardened towards OC and try to restrict us even more.

About the part of your post I put in bold for highlight...

Although open carry has been legal in Michigan since Michigan became a State in 1837 it was largely unheard of actually being done except by a few hunters while hunting. Certainly not seen in urban settings. Then, approximately 7 years ago, a very few guys got together, researched the laws, and decided that since open carry was legal within the current laws they would give it a try and see what happened. But they were wise and made sure they had recording devices to document what happened to them.

Well... plenty happened. The original few encouraged a few more and then there were a few more.... and then the hassles began. People were arrested and the media got involved too. The result? Those recordings were used to get the charges dropped.. and those recordings were used as evidence in the lawsuits against the police agencies that had illegally arrested the open carriers. And the media got involved some more hoping to use yet another MAN WITH A GUN! issue to sensationalize the whole thing.

And then there were the fellows who openly carried rifles. Oh my.. the police didn't like that at all... and the media went nuts! And more arrests happened followed by more lawsuits.

The end result as of today? The media coverage that was supposed to sensationalize and demonize carrying guns ended up educating quite a bit of the public that it is legal to carry a gun in public. In fact.. the media helped educate the public that if a person in Michigan has a concealed carry permit it is illegal for them to carry concealed in a school but it is legal for them to open carry in a school. And the lawsuits that were won with judgements against the police caused many police to be retrained in the legality of open carry and even prompted the Michigan State Police to issue a legal update bulletin #86 (can be read at the link below).

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

that explained to police depts. how open carry is legal in Michigan.

In short... in Michigan at least.... those who intentionally open carried to make a point, and even pushed that point in some cases, and made sure they recorded what happened (some recorded both audio and video) caused open carry to become known to the public as being legal and is now fairly well accepted as a great big.............. nothing. Harassment of any kind is rare and instead of people being afraid of seeing a man with a gun many folks approach that man with a gun with questions because they are curious if they can do it too.

And that result is exactly the opposite of the fear that open carrying to make a point or resulting in confrontations would harden folks against open carry and cause even more restrictions.

I open carry in urban settings all the time... almost daily... in Saginaw and the outlying areas. In businesses large and small. I've open carried into local council meetings to require illegal anti gun ordinances be repealed. And rarely do I get anything even resembling a negative response from anyone... and that is because a few hardy souls had the courage to step up, make a point, and endure the resulting confrontations a very short 7 years ago.

 

[Pir8fan]

Never have understood the open carry vs conceal carry toxicity. Just makes no sense what so ever.

I agree completely. We're just two sides of the same coin. I happen to CC but I've never had any issue with OC'ers. I respect their choice. All of us are 2A supporters so why does it make a difference HOW we chose to carry?

 

[barraclough1002]

I agree

 

[Warrior1256]

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. I CC because I don't like the attention I would get OC, but if someone else is comfortable OCing I have no problem with it.

 

[wolf_fire]

I wanted to say thank you to everyone so far within this thread.

This is the very first thread on this forum I have seen concerning OC and CC that didn't turn into a rabid disgusting display of machismo and braggadocio. Thank you for restoring my faith in you brothers and sisters in arms. It's nice to see a polite conversation about OC and CC.

So, once again, thanks to all of you who have acted like truly human beings.

 

[gejoslin]

In AR we're in the middle of a open carry fight with the letter of the law ACT 746. Some say it's legal to open carry some say it's not. So I'm forced to CC but would like the option to OC. AR Carry is having "Walks" to draw attention to OC and I suspect it will come up again this legislation cycle. Hope it will get passed this year!

 

[Bikenut]

In AR we're in the middle of a open carry fight with the letter of the law ACT 746. Some say it's legal to open carry some say it's not. So I'm forced to CC but would like the option to OC. AR Carry is having "Walks" to draw attention to OC and I suspect it will come up again this legislation cycle. Hope it will get passed this year!

I wish the best for your efforts!

 

[tac715]

I am a very firm believer in the Second Amendment and in the future am willing to die to protect ALL the amendments as originally written. IT is NOT the governments job to tell THE PEOPLE how, when, why OR where they can carry, whether open or concealed. The second Amendment is there, not for hunting as "they" would have us to believe, but for the protection OF THE PEOPLE from tyranny in GOVERNMENT---ANY GOVERNMENT!!! If WE THE PEOPLE want to protect our rights, GOD GIVEN and guaranteed to us by nature and protected by THE CONSTITUTION AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS, then we need TO EXERCISE them EVERY day. I have a CC License, but choose to OC, the CC license allows me to keep my firearm loaded at all times versus having to unload it in the car. LAST--Keep ALL firearms out of the reach of ANYONE not able to be responsible with it. This being said, "AN UNLOADED FIREARM IS AS USELESS AS A CAR IN THE GARAGE WITHOUT FUEL.