To pursue or to not pursue

[Graylon]

I'm from Arkansas and from what I understand we don't have the stand your ground law here. We have to flee until we have no other choice. (By law, before you use deadly force, from what I understand).

For example if you are walking along minding your own business down an idle street and robber Joe comes out of nowhere pulls a knife/gun or any type deadly weapon and robs you. You have your pistol on yourself but he has the drop on you so you can't get to it. You give him your wallet/jewelry ect. whatever he ask for. As he runs away you decide to get your wallet/jewelry or whatever he stole back. You run after him shoot and kill him.

Would this be considered murder? Is this a righteous shoot? Should you have let the robber go and called the police? What are other scenarios that could have been taken.

I hope my example was clear.. If not I will clearify

From what I understand once you are robbed and the perp runs away and you are considered out of danger.

 

[TAC]

Not sure how it is in Arkansas, but here in Colorado it would be murder.

It is not self defence because you are not defending yourself.

In some states, you are authorised to use deadly force to protect your property. In that cas it would seem to be justified, but again, I do not know what the law says in Arkansas.

 

[slamhouse]

Not sure about that one, but I was in a five guys burgers and fries joint not long ago, and some guy snagged the tip jar and ran. I chased after him but knowing I had my pistol on me, I let him go. The scuffle that could have taken place wasn't worth the 30$ he just got. I just gave them a 40$ tip and enjoyed my meal.

There lies a line somewhere as to when do you justify a bullet to retrieve something taken. I too am curious as to where that line lies here in Washington.

 

[r1derbike]

I'm also from Arkansas, and if anyone points a gun at me, or makes deadly swipes at me with a knife, I'm in fear of my life, and the criminal would have a very bad day.

These assaults are beyond the definition of duty to retreat. They are in your face, right now deadly situations that warrant immediate action.

Home invasion might be a different story, if you have the time and place to retreat, giving you the upper hand at your defensible position. If not and the perp(s) threaten your life with weapons, there is no duty to be killed by scum bags.

An unarmed perp (home invasion) I'll try to retain at gunpoint until the police get there, but if he/they bolted, I'd let them go and give police descriptions that may help them. Having said all above, I will just walk away from petty arguments or ignore loud-mouthed people using profanities. Before I started carrying, I would have been right back atcha in those personal exchanges. It's in everyone's interest to deescalate those encounters when carrying. They may call me every name in the book. I'll just shake my head and walk away. YMMV

 

[farsidefan1]

As soon as he runs off- DO NOT shoot him in the back as he is fleeing the scene of the crime. Forget about the wallet but remember his face so you can give the cops a good description. Now if he is facing you and gets distracted? I'm likely to draw and shoot because my life is still in his hands and up to his whim but once he is running off, be a good witness.

 

[XD40scinNC]

The threat has ended when the BG runs away.

NC is a stand your ground state, I have no duty to retreat, but once the BG is no longer a threat, i.e. they leave, they have been incapacitated by gun shot wounds, or they verbally surrender when faced with being shot, the right to use deadly force also ends.

In most states lethal force may be used only to protect yourself or someone else from death, serious injury or sexual assault. It is never permitted to protect property or to stop a criminal from fleeing.

 

[slamhouse]

It would be perrlmitted to stop a felony of which would authorize deadly force?

 

[ezkl2230]

As I have posted before, Michigan is one of the few states that has a fleeing felon rule that allows us to use force up to and including lethal in order to prevent a felon from fleeing the scene of their crime and insure that police can apprehend them.

 

[bofh]

My first question would be, why would you follow the guy in the first place? Do you have a death wish? Do you want to spend some time in jail?

You have no idea what you are running into. The guy may be part of a gang or group that is observing the robbery from the distance. Think about a gang initiation. You follow this guy and you very well may end up in a dark alley with 3 or more of his friends.

Even if the guy is alone and you follow him and you have the physical ability to catch up with him. Now what? You say, stop or I shoot? What if he continues to run? You shoot him in the back? If you shoot this guy, it won't be in self defense. You better have a good lawyer and some money and time to spend. You will need both.

At last, is it really worth the risk? As I have pointed out in other discussions, the question is not can I shoot, but rather do I have to shoot. The do I have to shoot mindset means that you only shoot to defend your live or the live of others when there is the fear of loss of live or of severe bodily injury.

 

[Stengun]

Howdy r1derbike,

I'm also from Arkansas, and if anyone points a gun at me, or makes deadly swipes at me with a knife, I'm in fear of my life, and the criminal would have a very bad day.

These assaults are beyond the definition of duty to retreat. They are in your face, right now deadly situations that warrant immediate action.

Home invasion might be a different story, if you have the time and place to retreat, giving you the upper hand at your defensible position. If not and the perp(s) threaten your life with weapons, there is no duty to be killed by scum bags.

An unarmed perp (home invasion) I'll try to retain at gunpoint until the police get there, but if he/they bolted, I'd let them go and give police descriptions that may help them. Having said all above, I will just walk away from petty arguments or ignore loud-mouthed people using profanities. Before I started carrying, I would have been right back atcha in those personal exchanges. It's in everyone's interest to deescalate those encounters when carrying. They may call me every name in the book. I'll just shake my head and walk away. YMMV

The OP didn't ask "What would you do?" He asked if this was legal.

OP: I live in Central Arkansas just east of Hot Springs and we do NOT have the right to stand our ground and MUST flee if
at all possible. No, that would not be legal.

Our law SUCKS big time.

Also with Arkansas Law the only person that can charge you with a crime is the PA of the county where the event takes place. Is your PA Pro-Gun and Pro-Self Defense? Mine is so in his opinion I have less duty to flee or retreat than someone living in a different county.

The PA in Pulaski, Larry Jegley, is very anti-gun, doesn't believe anyone should own, much less conceal carry a firearm and your charge a Law Abiding Citizen EVERY TIME he can over a gun charge.

Basically if you use your gun in Pulaski Co. you are going to jail.

Find out where your PA stands on this matter and the PA of any counties that you travel to on a regular bases.

I live in Garland Co., work in Hot Spring Co., my Dad and Brother live in Saline Co. where I also own land ( small private range ) and all the PAs are Pro-Gun and Pro Self Defense.

Plus I went to school with the Sheriff and his wife ( Larry and Tina Sanders ) and my brother's ex's cousin ( Rodney Wright ) is going to be the next Sheriff in Saline Co.

Until a couple of years ago we didn't have the right to defend ourselves on our own property outside our home.

Paul

 

[Graylon]

In most of the scenarios I mention I pretty much have in my mind set as to what I would do. But we know that all things can change once you get into that position. I read different opinions and view points here I haven't thought about and research. Even if they are from different states, different laws the whole thing. Once you get into a life or death situation what are you going to do.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Not sure about that one, but I was in a five guys burgers and fries joint not long ago, and some guy snagged the tip jar and ran. I chased after him but knowing I had my pistol on me, I let him go. The scuffle that could have taken place wasn't worth the 30$ he just got. I just gave them a 40$ tip and enjoyed my meal.

There lies a line somewhere as to when do you justify a bullet to retrieve something taken. I too am curious as to where that line lies here in Washington.

To me there are many more things to consider, especially when there is no further immediate threat of grave bodily harm to anyone. By allowing a criminal to escape unhindered are we enabling them to continue to victimize others? My feeling is absolutely yes. But I must balance all my responsibilities. The absolute first responsibility that I have in my life is to my family. When I decide to interject myself into a situation, especially when I am not even the immediate victim of the crime, I am also interjecting the well being of my family into that situation because if I have to defend my actions in court - or worse yet I am gravely injured or killed by the criminal - that loss is going to come from them as much as it is going to come from me.

If you are a single person without obligations to family than maybe the responsibility you feel to society might drive you to take more actions than others might to benefit society as a whole. Your actions might end up coming at large personal expense to you, though; or the outcome may be reason to applaud you for your actions. Once I assume responsibility for a family, however, my first obligation is to provide for them and their well being which is much more important to me than attempting to stop what is defined in law (Washington) as theft in the third degree which is only a gross misdemeanor.

The responsibility to protect my family is even greater when they are with me. If I interject myself into a situation, what is the effect going to be on them in the immediate situation? Sure if all goes well they might see my actions as admirable or heroic. But what if the criminal had turned and confronted you rather than continue to run? What if the criminal had a partner outside waiting and they both confronted you rather than running? What do you think the affect on the family that is with you going to be if they witness you shooting someone in self defense over $30 or, worse yet, watch you get stabbed or shot?

 

[BC1]

Most states without SYG laws only require an attempt at retreat if it can be done with complete safety to self and others. Lot's of times retreat isn't available. You can't retreat when walking with your child. Cripples, the elderly or infirm can't retreat. The yardstick by which your actions will be judged are based on the reasonable person. What would a reasonable person have done when faced with exactly the situation as you were? Would they have retreated or fought? That reasonable person standard must recognize you're elderly, crippled or otherwise impeded. If walking with a ten-year-old daughter when approached you aren't retreating anywhere. A 70-year-old woman isn't running away. A guy with a bad heart can't run away or mount much of a physical response.
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It's also important to note that in states without a SYG law the perception is that you can't fight back; or that you must keep retreating. The "duty to retreat" is generally meant to keep the parties from coming into contact to begin with. If everyone walks away there's no problem. Right? Wrong! When one retreats but the perp won't allow it... all bets are off. If the perp pursues as you retreat you may at some point stop and stand your ground. If your retreat is blocked you may stand your ground. Once you're attacked or the perp has become overtly aggressive the duty to retreat is gone. You may defend yourself with force commensurate with stopping the threat.