The Tueller 21 foot rule...Knife wins, Gun loses.


The_Outlaw

~The Dude Abides~

The_Outlaw

~The Dude Abides~
This video clip is a frightening reality check. Even 'after' being shot multiple times, the suspect is 'still' able to stab numerous officers.
 

B2Tall

Stirrer of the Pot
Here in Florida the laws governing self defense use 21' as the basis for distance when the threat is armed with a deadly weapon other than a gun. It's my understanding that the 21' rule is when you can shoot. You can draw your weapon any time you feel the appropriate level of threat regardless of distance.
 

KCD1974

New member
^^^ That's the point, you'd better draw well BEFORE the attacker enters 21ft, and preferably have already shot him outside of 21ft. That's only 7 yds...closer than I'd like to see someone running at me with a knife :) To the second video...WOW...it appeared not all the cops had guns...oops....
 

MamaLiberty

New member
Excellent incentive to practice head shots...

The rule generally is that if someone comes at you with a knife, you are GOING TO GET CUT. The question is "how badly."

As always, situational awareness is the most important starting point. Otherwise, you won't have a prayer of seeing them until the knife is in your flesh.
 

B2Tall

Stirrer of the Pot
In the first video the attacker was only about 6' away. I would have "defended myself" with my pistol well before that.

In the second video the cops look like they have about as much training in that sort of thing as a bunch of cub scouts. I'm not sure if they all had guns but at least one of them did. Surrounding a potential target makes it a bit difficult for the shooter to have a clear shot without having a non-target in the way. They also made it real easy for the perp to attack them individually.
 

Danmc

New member
I'm no expert, but I don't understand why the perp with a large knife was surrounded. Kind of like putting him in a corner, as well as putting fellow officers in target zone. Also, why were no guns drawn until the perp managed to cut 3 cops? Makes no sense to me.
 

Rhino

New member
In the second video the cops look like they have about as much training in that sort of thing as a bunch of cub scouts. I'm not sure if they all had guns but at least one of them did. Surrounding a potential target makes it a bit difficult for the shooter to have a clear shot without having a non-target in the way. They also made it real easy for the perp to attack them individually.
All of that sounds about par for a third world country like Nicaragua. They looked like they had little or no training, and obviously they weren't expecting to shoot because they put themselves in the line of fire of the other officers when they surrounded him. That probably explains why it took so long to shoot the guy. That and the fact that probablky not all of them had guns, also about par for many third world countries. Come to think of it, some police officers not having guns, and trying to reslove violent encounters without guns, is not all that uncommon in many countries, not just in the third world, even though it seems very unreal to us.

I'm no expert, but I don't understand why the perp with a large knife was surrounded. Kind of like putting him in a corner, as well as putting fellow officers in target zone.
They were trying to arrest him, and apparently it never occurred to them that shooting might be necessary.

Also, why were no guns drawn until the perp managed to cut 3 cops? Makes no sense to me.
Who says they weren't drawn? The cameraman was terrible. He showed the ground more than the people after the action got started.
 

BC1

,
We shouldn't try to over-analyze these situations with hypothetical responses. Hindsight is 20/20. No one can tell you how they would react in a real situation. The truth is that knife attacks are fast and extremely violent. We run the drill during advanced PP classes. I explain to a student that at some time I'll tap his shoulder while talking. He must draw and fire two into the target in front him when I do. As I'm explaining the drill I tap and run. 25 feet easily covered before I hear the shot.

We also need to understand, as the video shows, that rarely is a single shot incapacitating. Goblins can continue to fight for several minutes even after a direct upper COM shot. Sometimes after several.
 

B2Tall

Stirrer of the Pot
While I appreciate the dedication shown by the officers, I can't help but question their methods. If I didn't have a weapon you can be darn sure I'd have picked up a large rock, empty bottle, etc.....something to drill the guy in the head with if he charged me while a couple of my fellow cops jumped on him.

Of course in this country he would have been ventilated long before he could slash a LEO.
 

Iam2Taz

New member
When I was watching it, I was thinking polish firing squad. I understand they were trying to arrest the guy. I wonder if they changed their methods after this encounter?
 

father-of-three

New member
I have heard that even a 30 foot distance can barely be enough time to react to an attacker with a knife, whether it is drawing a firearm or just trying to get out of the path of attack.
 

-06

New member
One should not hesitate to have his firearm "inhand" and ready to use if a possible threat occurs. Example: was in a shopping center parking lot recently and noticed a gent about 100' away staring at me. He started walking directly toward me with a deliberate (John Wayne gait) walk and still staring. I turned sideways and eased my carry by my side and hammered back. About twenty feet away I recognized him as an old classmate (from 20 yrs ago). When he got to me I had to tell him to wait a second while I lowered the hammer and re holstered. He laughed and pulled back his jacket to show me his. Felt a bit foolish by he "spooked" me with the way he was looking and walking toward me. We got a good laugh out of it and went on the grab a cup of hot chocolate. Had it been a real threat he would have been stopped when he came around the end of the truck. One can run away from a threat to increase the time/distance needed to end a problem. That is one very good reason to learn how to shoot while on the move.
 

Hoganbeg

Member
Yep. Horrible camera work.

Obvious lack of officer training. If they weren't prepared to shoot him they should have at least had a nightstick in hand. A stick can be very effective against a knife, provided one knows how to use it.

Cops made sure there were no clear lanes of fire by encircling the perp. At least one officer was fixated on his weapon-the gun-when a good kick to the forward knee would stop him in his tracks, allowing the officer to gain distance and employ his weapon. Finally, the perp used the least useful of knife grips for an untrained fighter.

I hope the officers weren't permanently damaged.


-06
"I turned sideways and eased my carry by my side and hammered back."

So, you have to cock the hammer before you can fire?
 

NCIC105

New member
Excellent incentive to practice head shots...

The rule generally is that if someone comes at you with a knife, you are GOING TO GET CUT. The question is "how badly."

As always, situational awareness is the most important starting point. Otherwise, you won't have a prayer of seeing them until the knife is in your flesh.

While I agree a head shot would be good in this case, however I think most folks would do better practicing a double tap with the first round to the torso and them tap them in the head if you have the ability. If not double tap to the torso...No don't get me wrong if this nut was coming at me I'd empty my clip into him...
 

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