The mass shootings about which few people speak...

[ezkl2230]

I know there are some pastors and deacons, maybe even a few priests, on this forum. I address this to you.

Bloomberg's Everytown cooked statistics to try to show that, since Sandy Hook, there had been 74 "mass school" shootings. Once fact checkers got ahold of those numbers, they determined that the true number was closer to 15 - still far too many, but significantly lower than Bloomberg tried to portray.

But while everyone is talking about school shootings, there is another kind of shooting that is going on and very few people are talking about it - church shootings.

In 2012 and 2013, there were 139 and 132 (respectively) shootings in churches or on church property, nearly NINE TIMES as many as school shootings, resulting in (respectively) 76 and 45 deaths, those numbers are up from 107/49 in 2011 (Link Removed). While the number of attacks stayed relative stable from 2012 to 2013, what changed is the number of churches that are allowing their members to carry - which kept the number of deaths down in 2013.

Pastors, I know it goes against everything many of you believe, but it is time to let the sheep defend themselves from the wolves who are attacking, not because of our testimony, but because we are seen as just that - sheep, easy pickings. To quote from Thomas Paine,

"These people are either too superstitiously religious, or too cowardly for arms; they either cannot or dare not defend; their property is open to any one who has the courage to attack them," Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War
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To quote from a HIGHER Authority, Jesus the Christ, "...let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one," Luke 22:36b (ESV). King David and the Prophet Samuel thought the temple too important to allow it to be attacked or pilfered; they established the temple guard (1 Chron. 9:17-29).

It is time to let our members defend themselves and their families. Let them carry.

 

[Peggy Reist]

I'm sure it varies from church to church and state to state, but I've never ran into a gun-buster sign on a church. In the past two years, I've probably been in a dozen or so different churches.

 

[gfrlaser]

but I've never ran into a gun-buster sign on a church

True. However, in Ohio carry onto a church is by law prohibited unless given specific permission to do so by the church authority. Getting that 'authority' is difficult at best. I tried by writing to 4 churches and was denied by all 4.

 

[jhodge83]

True. However, in Ohio carry onto a church is by law prohibited unless given specific permission to do so by the church authority. Getting that 'authority' is difficult at best. I tried by writing to 4 churches and was denied by all 4.

same rules here in SC...not that i would ever carry in a church...or be in one at all...

 

[guitargain]

I am in Florida and I carry at church. My pastor knows it, but not many others do. There are probably 10 or 12 of our members that have a permit and carry there regularly/

 

[tcox4freedom]

same rules here in SC...not that i would ever carry in a church...or be in one at all...

You'd be welcome in our church gun & all. We wouldn't even hold your foolish atheistic views against you as long as you didn't disrupt the service. I'd even take you to Sunday dinner afterwards. :smile:


-

 

[slimmy]

Churches are very soft targets. That's why I carry. With permission of course.

 

[Axeanda45]

I never ask permission, and I ALWAYS carry..... Even to church, and I live in OH where the "law" requires me to get permission. I dont give a rip what ANY UnConstitutional "law" says I have to do or not do.....

 

[ezkl2230]

I'm sure it varies from church to church and state to state, but I've never ran into a gun-buster sign on a church. In the past two years, I've probably been in a dozen or so different churches.

In Michigan, churches are pistol free zones by law unless you have permission from the Pastor or board to carry. The church of which I am a member, and for which I lead a security team, does not permit carry. I am working on that. In the meantime, I still cc there. I have to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29). Jesus commanded His disciples to arm themselves (Luke 22:36), and then He commanded His disciples to teach others to observe EVERYTHING He commanded them to do (Matthew 28:20). Also in Michigan, a gunbuster sign isn't required to prohibit carry. Any entity enforcing a pistol free zone is merely required to make a "reasonable effort" to communicate their policy. As long as someone speaks to you about the policy, you are required to take the firearm out to your vehicle or face a misdemeanor trespassing charge.

 

[BluesStringer]

In Michigan, churches are pistol free zones by law unless you have permission from the Pastor or board to carry. The church of which I am a member, and for which I lead a security team, does not permit carry. I am working on that. In the meantime, I still cc there. I have to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29). Jesus commanded His disciples to arm themselves (Luke 22:36), and then He commanded His disciples to teach others to observe EVERYTHING He commanded them to do (Matthew 28:20). Also in Michigan, a gunbuster sign isn't required. Any entity enforcing a pistol free zone is merely retired to make a reasonable effort to communicate their policy. As long as someone speaks to you about the policy, you are required to take the firearm out to your vehicle or face a misdemeanor trespassing charge.

There are pastors out there who make a point of identifying themselves as being constitutional Patriots one or two notches under being teachers of the Word. There are some in MI too.

 

[ezkl2230]

There are pastors out there who make a point of identifying themselves as being constitutional Patriots one or two notches under being teachers of the Word. There are some in MI too.

I know that my pastor, his dad, and one of our assistant pastors carry, at least when they are not at church. Not sure whether they carry at church. The assistant pastor who carries (and who heads up our security program) also happens to be a chaplain with a police department; he also happens to be the one most against civilians carrying at church. I am supposed to be having a meeting with my pastor in the not-too-distant future to discuss this issue within the general context of church security. My views on church security are a little more proactive than those of our assistant pastor. I spent a year in Peru back in '86-'87 when the shining path terrorist movement was really gaining speed; I was essentially an unarmed noncombatant in what was, in a number of instances, a combat zone. I went through a three hour "soft" interrogation at gunpoint (I had FIVE smg's pointed at my the whole time) at the hands of the Peruvian Guardia Civil because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thankfully, there was enough doubt regarding my purpose for being where I was that they didn't resort to a typical interrogation. I was cleared and never had another problem with the Peruvian police after that. So my approach is to anticipate what a bad guy might do and prepare to handle the worst case scenario (active shooter); the assistant pastor prefers that we act as human targets and wait for the cavalry to arrive (our training under his direction has largely been directed at Code Adam drills, although we DID participate in a "shoot/no shoot" class that turned out to be VERY heavy on the no shoot and very light on the shoot; incidentally, I outshot him during the final single shot test. He claims there was a problem with the gun we all had to use for the test. It worked fine for everyone else!). I am hoping I can get the pastor to reconsider our policy.

 

[BluesStringer]

Yeah, I get it ezkl. Wasn't saying or suggesting that you "should" change churches when you feel at home at the one you're at, just letting you know that there are options in case you weren't aware that there are organized pastors who embrace their Americanism and the role that free clergymen played in our founding. It was, after all, a preacher and his congregation who stood guard over the magazines in Lexington and Concord, and who fired the "shot heard 'round the world" defending those enclaves, as well as defending Samuel Adams and John Hancock so they could later fulfill their important roles in history. I realize that patriotism and fealty to founding principles aren't concepts that are part of the Word, but for me, neither are they concepts that must be eschewed in finding a church to call home. If you're happy where you're at, great! Nothing I say here is intended to challenge any aspect of that very personal decision. Just letting you know about options. God Bless,

Blues

 

[ezkl2230]

Yeah, I get it ezkl. Wasn't saying or suggesting that you "should" change churches when you feel at home at the one you're at, just letting you know that there are options in case you weren't aware that there are organized pastors who embrace their Americanism and the role that free clergymen played in our founding. It was, after all, a preacher and his congregation who stood guard over the magazines in Lexington and Concord, and who fired the "shot heard 'round the world" defending those enclaves, as well as defending Samuel Adams and John Hancock so they could later fulfill their important roles in history. I realize that patriotism and fealty to founding principles aren't concepts that are part of the Word, but for me, neither are they concepts that must be eschewed in finding a church to call home. If you're happy where you're at, great! Nothing I say here is intended to challenge any aspect of that very personal decision. Just letting you know about options. God Bless,

Blues

Understood, and no offense taken. Unfortunately, with the exception of one church (and - no offense intended - I'm not a tongues-talking, laying on hands healing charismatic, which the one church in my area turns out to be), the churches listed are long distances from where I live. At this time I will continue to work within this congregation. There are many others here who feel exactly as I do, and that number is growing.

 

[mojoman]

Understood, and no offense taken. Unfortunately, with the exception of one church (and - no offense intended - I'm not a tongues-talking, laying on hands healing charismatic, which the one church in my area turns out to be), the churches listed are long distances from where I live. At this time I will continue to work within this congregation. There are many others here who feel exactly as I do, and that number is growing.

I'm am all of this and more and yes I do carry and most of the people in my church know but I don't all the time carry during service. Be safe and be arm.