The False Security Of Laser Aiming Devices And Their General Uselessness.


NFTATraining

New member
If you have talked to me for more than 5 minutes about tactics or training I am sure I told you about how I absolutley can't stand laser aiming devices. They give people false security and I absolutely despise their very existance. No one will ever change my mind on this, I don't care if Samuel Colt himself comes back from the dead and tells me otherwise.

I estimate that 20% of my students that walk in the door for a concealed weapons class think that buying a laser dissmisses them from having to practice. I have taped over the lasers on a many of crimson trace grips during training and I do explain to our students that just because you have a red dot pointing where the bullet should go, doesn't mean it will go there unless you still practice the fundamentals of shooting: stance, grip, aiming, breathing and most important of all, trigger control. I then explain that if you grip/hold of the firearm is the wrong way, or don't learn how to manipulate the trigger, etc. its those actions that cause the bullet not to hit where it should. So even though the laser is pointed exactly where it should be your bullet will not go there and having a laser won't magically make it any different. I tell them also that unless a higher priced/better quality laser is purchased they can get knocked out of adjustment way to easy if you accidently bang the gun during cleanings, etc. Its at this point in time where I normally get the "Thats not what the guy said on T.V." look.

I also explain this scenario "If you come home and your door is kicked in, and you decide not to wait for police and search the house your self, your laser is just making it easier for the person robbing your house to see you with you seeing them. You might as well have a huge neon sign that flashes "Here I am"

With most gun stores I found they try to sell these types of accessories with the firearm and completely lie to the person about what it can or can't do. Either lying to make the sale or lying out of ignorance, it really doesn't matter, it makes my job harder. This got aggravating to the point to where I either needed to come up with a solution in training to remedy it, or just stop doing the concealed classes. I actually found a very very simple solution to this and I was amazed at how well it worked.

The basis is simple: "Seeing Is Believing". I went out and bought 2 different style of used revolvers and 2 different styles of semi-automatic pistols, bought the lasers, which I swore I would never ever ever waste my money on, and let the ones who feel the way they do about them to try it out. What happens? They never hit where the laser is pointing, its then they understand what I am talking about. Its the best thing I ever did for this problem because atleast they leave my school with the proven fact they have to practice their shooting techniques.

Out of all the training our facility does, Concealed Classes are the ones I am most concerned about. People get a lot of power simply because they have the right too, which is great, god bless America, but its those people that I want to understand that if you are going to have that power, it needs to be respected and you respect it by practicing to use it.
 

Well, this is only partly true. After more than 20 years in the military and anti-terrorist service I agree that a laser doesn't replace training, but it improves your chances to hit the target. Especially in a high stress situation. Using a laser in a dark environment where you can't see your target or even know where it may be is suicidal.
 
Agreed NFTA, with all you said. I have laser sights on my regular carry .45 but don't use them or practice with them. First. in a situation where I might need to access my carry gun quickly, I would have to turn the sights on, which requires precious seconds and fine motor skills to push the tiny button up. Second, I practice to develop muscle memory so that my natural aim results in a correct sight picture automatically. Third, they can burn out, and I wouldn't want to have to rely on them and be thrown off when they don't function. I have only found them to be useful as a training device to determine how much the gun moves when dry firing. But even then, they feel like a distraction.
 
I appreciate your input. I have what I'm assuming sig1911 has, a Kimber Pro Covert II with the included grips.... I like having them but, even with them there, it automatically makes you want to use it as a crutch. This should be no match to training and skill. I think that when you purchase a firearm that "comes with" a laser, you should first have to prove that you can shoot at least a 5 inch group before using it. When the proverbial poo hits the fan, you're gonna be just as shaky as you would after running a mile... Unless your target is high on drugs and finds the laser entertaining, you're not going to have much time to respond if you solely rely on it.
 
A laser is strictly a tool for those that are already good shooters!

I replaced the CT grips on my LCR with the stock grips. The CT grips were only slightly softer than a bowling ball-OUCH!

I did install an XS front sight. This fits my needs perfectly!

-Doc
 
I use the laser grips on my S & W 686 4" .357 Magnum as a training tool. I do not let anyone try them untill AFTER they learn to shoot with proper instruction in all of the requirements for good shooting and weapon safety. The laser will come out to explane a flinch or a flinch cover up and or a trigger snatch or pull as opposed to a smooth steady squeeze. No they are not for everyone but they are for me. I can also operate my 686 or my Glock Mod. #22 with or without the laser being on just by the pressure of my shooting hand and have trained myself to use the laser grips in this manner untill I need them. I will then apply pressure for the laser to come on at the same time as I am applying pressure for the trigger to travel to the rear.
No laser's are not for everyone nor are they a cureall for everyone, but if used and trained properly with them they are a great tool for our shooting need's.
Bill
 
To the OP...That is a pretty oppinionated piece you wrote there. I think for you to issue a blanket statement like that, I would think twice about attending a class taught by you. Only because I would fear that you may hold other important training information USLESS in your oppinion. That being said, there is a time and aplace for everything...INCLUDING lasers. Maybe you should teach proper use of a laser, as limited as that may be. Not just come out and call them usless. What if you become injured and can no longer raise your weapon in a SD situation, Having a laser may then be your only option. LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS! Don't be a HATER.
 
If you can shoot and you train regularly, a laser will do what its supposed to, if you use them and feel confident its helping you then thats your prerogative, not disputing that fact at all. My point was just that the manufacturers of lasers really kind of false advertise their product and as a result new firearm owners buy them relying on the fact it will make them accurate. Thats what makes me angry about the whole thing. I thoroughly test my theories in many different scenerios before I start talking about something and I can't see replacing my sights with the laser, I am faster and more accurate with using the tools 3 feet in front of me instead of finding a little dot 6-10 feet away. Yes for dry firing drills that is their only good use and I would have put that in my post but I feel using a laser to show where your barrel is moving after you pull the trigger and using it as a device to aim with, are two totally different things. We are actually developing a dummy round with a laser built into it. This way its bored sighted and will come on when the firing pin hits where the primer normally is, turning on the laser and showing you exactly where the round would go from your manipulation of the trigger. I appreciate everyone's response and always like to debate and hear different opinions.
 
Cowboy, close. Kimber Crimson Ultracarry II. The only handgun I have that is not a Sig :), but it's the right size for my purse and decently pleasant to shoot.
 
"I think for you to issue a blanket statement like that, I would think twice about attending a class taught by you."

That works out because I wouldn't want you as a student. Are you kidding me? A blanket statement? I am not sure how more specific I could have been. Firearms instruction is no place to lighten up and I take it very seriously. Its people with that attitude that produces piss poor instructors. I will never let anyone believe something is going to work for them when I know it won't, especially in a possible life or death situation, I don't care how unpopular it makes me. Teaching proper use of a laser? Proper use of a laser is learning how to shoot the damn gun correctly and that was my exacty point. My whole point to that post was the false security that is advertised. If the best scenario that you can come up with is that your arm might get injured and can't raise the gun to aim, then you better step back and really understand what you wrote, because I can already tell you have NO clue as to what the hell your talking about. If your incapacitated and not able to raise your arm and having to shoot from a position like that you better hope you can still operate the gun correctly or you won't be accurate anyways, shooting while injured takes a lot of training and practice if that scenario were to ever happen. It scares me that you think having a laser will help you in a situation like that. That is one of the most B.S. statements I think I have ever heard trying to prove someone "not capable" as an instructor. I have tested everything I say or teach with every scnerio that myself and 6 other very expirienced instructors can think of. I mean where the hell did you learn about firearms at? I hate people who interject b.s. statements like that to hear them selves talk and have absolutley no idea as to what they are talking about. I do not have respect for people like you. Its B.S. crap like that that helps promote the stupidity and urban myths in firearms training. I really hope like hell YOUR not an instructor. Go peddle your B.S. make believe stuff somewhere else.
 
Blanket statement, ie: all lasers are useless! Like I said , don't be a hater! Why is it that almost all special forces weapons have a laser on board, they obviously are extremely talented with their weapons, and still choose to equip them with lasers...Must be a reason for that. I am sorry if I offended you I may have been a little direct. But I will stand by the fact that lasers DO have a place on civilian CC weapons.
 
I train with my weapon without a laser, my primary reason for not having a laser is "Murphy" and I are old friends from sailing and I would just as soon not know him with my pistol, shotgun or rifle.
 
If you have talked to me for more than 5 minutes about tactics or training I am sure I told you about how I absolutley can't stand laser aiming devices. They give people false security and I absolutely despise their very existance. No one will ever change my mind on this, I don't care if Samuel Colt himself comes back from the dead and tells me otherwise.

THANK YOU! I cannot agree more. Just last month I was at Bass Pro shooting and a guy with his girlfriend just picked up an XDm .40 cal (full size) that he just had Bass Pro fit with Laser. They were shooting in the lane next to me and I overhear them start to piss and moan about how Bass Pro didn't sight it in correctly. We were both shooting at 21 ft. and I saw that his shots were all over the place so I get tired of listening to them gripe and I asked them "how can you tell that it ain't sighted in right"?
The girl looks at me like I am a moron and said, and I quote: "Duh! look at the target!" So I said "that doesn't tell you anything about the laser, It just tells me that you shoot poorly but thats an easy fix". So the guy asked what I meant and I explained to him briefly about technique and showed him my target. I was shooting the same gun as he only in the compact, my EDC gun. I asked him to let me try the weapon and I shot three rounds in the center. They said WOW! I guess the laser is OK. I told them I didn't use the laser, Its a useless piece of crap unless you know how to shoot already. I think I made my point.
 
Well, yes, you are right. A laser won't mask any stance, trigger control or other errors. What it DOES is enable me to get a sight otherwise nearly impossible without reading glasses on. I simply cannot see the sights otherwise. And I doubt that I will have time to put my glasses on in time to shoot the bad guy.
 
That is why they are equipt with an on/off switch. When I purchased my first pistol, my pride was severly hurt when I couldn't hit jack squat with it. But as they say practice makes perfect. I am by no means a crack shot, buy I can generally hit what I am aiming at. My latest purchase came with a laser on it already, it also came with the stock grips. I wouldn't think of removing the crimson trace grips, for the simple fact that it gives me one tool to use OR choose not to use. I like that the option is there. You don't always have time for a perfect stance, and a relaxed squeeze of the trigger. Sometimes a red dot on the chest is all that is needed to stop the BG's advance P.S. , Thanks JOEMENDOZA I thought I was the only dog in this fight!
 
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