Tell a LEO you have a ccw

[HowardCohodas]

I guess they can also arrest people for walking without their drivers license ?

Forgive my limitations, but I just don't understand the point you are trying to make.

 

[ishi]

LEO: I am sorry sir but I clocked you at 65 in a 55 zone so I believe that you are breaking a law. Do you want to cooperate here or at the jail house?

I don't know about Arkansas but in SC the HP can and will carry you to jail for a traffic violation. If you are an out-of-state resident and get pulled if you cannot post bail you can plan on going to jail until someone can bail you out. If you are a SC resident they have the option of allowing you to continue on a personal recognizance bond. I would not try to pull your little speech on a SC Highway Patrolman. I know several of them personally and they will carry you to jail.

Minor traffic violations are not punishable by jail time in most States. At any rate, that's the risk of exercising your constitutional rights.. some thug with a badge and a god complex might decide to cart you down to the jailhouse.

Like I said, a cop can arrest you for anything at all, and simply let the judge dismiss the charge after your time has been wasted. It's called a nuisance charge, and bully cops love them. The good news is that the judge won't be so impressed by the police officer's decision, and you'll be on your way soon enough. The bad news is that it tends to disabuse people of their notions of exactly how free their country is.

This line is so ridiculous... "Do you want to cooperate here or at the jail house?" Exactly what sort of non-cooperation would this be referring to? Not consenting to an illegal search? Not answering nosy questions about where you're going? Not offering up an itemized list of everything in the vehicle? From what you're saying it sounds like SC is full of cops who are extremely unprofessional. The police where I live would be unhappy but not morally outraged by a polite insistence on your civil rights.

Sadly I may never get to test my script, since I habitually drive 10 miles under the speed limit and always use my turn signals.

 

[FN1910]

Just pointing ou the fact that in your script that you tell the cop that you are not breaking any laws where speeding, failure to use turn signals etc. is breaking a law and justifies probable cause. Normally a traffic violation does not justify jail time but it can lead to it. While sitting beside the road after being stopped for speeding is no the best time to tell a LEO I am not breaking any laws so go chase thyself.

 

[LeavingMass]

Forgive my limitations, but I just don't understand the point you are trying to make.

that its stupid as hell to require one to tell or have their license with them when they're NOT CARRYING ( NOT DRIVING )

If a cop stop you for having a burnt-out taillight, why the hell you want to bring guns into the conversation ?
want more cops opinion ? Link Removed and Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com

If a cop pulls you over and on his computer he can tell if you have a License for weapons, he should always presume you are carrying .

I have LEO family member(s) and associates, and like DrLewall said

the LEO will perhaps look upon you as a "wannabe bragger" if you spout off that you have a permit to carry your big badass gun.

like ishi says

As for spontaneously informing, I see no need to do that. It's best to keep your conversations with LEOs as short as possible in my opinion. Obey the letter of the law.

If an officer wants to get bent out of shape because you didn't wave your license for him at first, that's on him. And it most certainly would NOT be probable cause to search your vehicle. Probable cause means the officer has cause to believe there is evidence of a particular crime hidden in your vehicle. Since the officer knows that you have a license, even if there was a gun there, no crime would have been committed. Such a search would be a violation of the 4th amendment.

 

[ishi]

Just pointing ou the fact that in your script that you tell the cop that you are not breaking any laws where speeding, failure to use turn signals etc. is breaking a law and justifies probable cause. Normally a traffic violation does not justify jail time but it can lead to it. While sitting beside the road after being stopped for speeding is no the best time to tell a LEO I am not breaking any laws so go chase thyself.

You're right that breaking a minor traffic law does constitute probable cause for a traffic stop - I'm not disputing that. Probable cause for a vehicle search is a whole different ball of wax.

Some things that would probably justify a vehicle search:
1) a weapon in plain sight
2) drugs or something looking like drugs, in plain sight
3) admitting you are carrying a weapon in the vehicle, even if you have a license
4) fresh red paint all over the backseat
5) refusing to hand over license, registration, proof of insurance
6) refusing to hand over concealed carry license if asked (yes, they already know from when they ran your plates / driver's license)

Some things that do not justify a vehicle search:
1) declining a vehicle search
2) declining to tell a police officer where you're going
3) declining to answer questions about the content of your vehicle
4) declining to answer whether you are carrying a weapon or not
4) declining to answer any question at all

They CAN ask you to step out of the car and frisk you on any stop. If you were stupid and lied about whether you had a weapon on you, and the officer finds one anyway, that might give probable cause to search the vehicle. It may also alarm the hell out of the officer and get you sent to the tank, even if your carry license is valid. These guys are only human, and a lie like that is really really creepy. If you don't want to say, then just don't answer.

Now, the police CAN legally detain you (not arrest you) for a reasonable amount of time while he tries to get probable cause to search your vehicle, and he can make you wait for a drug dog to show up and sniff you and the outside your car.

And of course, the police have the ability to make false or nuisance arrests. But good cops don't do this, only god-complex cops do this. I think there are mostly good cops out there. As long as you use a polite tone of voice and don't go out of your way to offend the officer, you should be able to claim your rights without being sent off to the tank.

Exercising your constitutional rights in the face of Authority takes courage. Nobody ever said it would be easy.

 

[HowardCohodas]

This thread has turned into a mystery to me. I feel like I have stepped through the looking glass, even though my name is not Alice.

Is it or is it not true that in some states you are required to announce to an LEO upon first encounter that you have a CCP and if you are currently armed? If I am reading the laws of my state correctly, this is the case. Whether or not you agree with the law, obey it or be willing to suffer the consequences. Suggesting that someone willing to obey the law lacks courage seems more like a school yard taunt then intelligent discourse.

 

[ishi]

I think I'm being misunderstood. I live in Arkansas, where people need not notify upon first encounter. In fact, this forum is in the Arkansas state section of the forums...

But by all means, if your state requires you to notify, do so. I don't advocate or recommend breaking the law - I only recommend retaining your rights, such as they are.

I hope this clarifies what I've been saying.

 

[duckcallinfool]

I just don't understand why so many people here are getting so defensive about showing an LEO their CHL. He is going to know as soon as he runs your DL anyway.

I've been stopped for breaking the law once since I got my CHL. The first time for speeding approx 15 over the speed limit. As the Trooper was pulling up, I flicked a cigarette butt out the window (I know, smart). He came up and told me he would let me get out and pick the butt up off his highway so he wouldn't have to write me a ticket for littering. I got out and picked it up. As I reapproached the truck I tossed my trash in the back and handed the officer my DL and CHL. He asked if I had my gun with me, I answered yes. He asked where my gun was, I told him. He told me to just leave it where it was and we were going to be ok. I got back in the truck, he asked for my registration and insurance. I got them for him, he went to his car, came back a couple minutes later told me to slow down and wished me a good night. Was I lucky to get stopped by a cop that wasn't a butt? Maybe. In hind sight it seems he started to be one (about the cigarette butt), but once he saw my CHL and knew I was cleared at the federal level as not being a criminal or nut case, it seemed to turn the whole situation around rapidly.

Exactly a week later, traveling the same highway, I came to a road block. The county deputy working the road block approached my truck, introduced himself and let me know the reason for the road block. He asked to see my DL, reg., and Ins. I handed him my DL and CHL and let him know where the others were located and reached across to get them. As I was reaching for them, he asked me if I knew they had changed the law about presenting LEO with the CHL and I said no, I didn't know. I just felt it was curteous to let him know I had my CHL. We ended up talking trucks sitting in the middle of the highway.

Generally speaking, anything you can do to help reduce the stress of an LEO during a routine stop will make things more pleasant for all parties involved.

As opposed to ishi's solution which turns highly irritating just daydreaming about it.

It's true that an LEO can arrest you for any infraction at all, real or imagined. However, being cowed into compliance by the threat of a false arrest is very close to fascism in my book.

I've got my own 'script' for being stopped here in Arkansas (it would change if out of state). Here 'tis.

(me, with drivers lic, reg and insurance in hand, with windows rolled down and hands on the wheel)

LEO: driver's license, registration and insurance please?

(I hand them over)

LEO: are you carrying any drugs, firearms or dangerous items in your car today?

me: With respect officer, I'd prefer to talk about why you stopped me today, and not what I do or don't have in my vehicle.

LEO: Can you step out of the car please sir?

(I step out of the car, LEO searches me and finds my weapon at 4 o'clock, proceeds to cuff me)

LEO: Do you have a license for this?

me: Yes officer, in my wallet in my right front pocket.

(officer finds the license)

LEO: why didn't you tell me about this before?

me: There are currently around 20 states that require citizens with carry licenses to spontaneously notify LEOs. Arkansas is not one of them.

LEO (quite cranky): Do you mind if I have a look in your car sir?

me: I won't consent to that search, officer. Would you mind uncuffing me, please?

LEO: where are you driving today, sir?

me: with all respect sir, I'm only trying to get from point A to point B. I'm not breaking any laws, and I don't really feel like answering your questions. May I go now?

LEO (extremely grumpy, uncuffs me, writes out my ticket for the largest fine allowed by law for an infraction which I may or may not have commited, hands me back my weapon with the bullets removed from the magazines, and gives me a grumpy lecture on how I should act appropriately in awe of the omnipotent power of the badge the next time I'm stopped)

me: Thank you officer, have a nice day.

(the entire episode probably lasts less than an hour, and may or may not involve backup being called)

Now, let's count the number of constitutional rights I exercised above.

2nd amendment, check (keeping and bearing arms)
4th amendment, check (refusing an unreasonable search)
5th amendment, check (declining to be interrogated)

Yes, exercising your rights may not be the most convenient thing on earth, and it may take a bit of your time. It may even piss off an officer or two. But you will walk away feeling pride that you live in a free country.

-ishi

 

[Boofreakinyah]

Common practice

A widely used and taught method of information is that if you are stopped by LE they will ask for DL, REG and proof of ins. IF you are carrying, you don't want to verbally tell the officer you are armed because his training and instinct lead him to react defensively to the word "gun". Keeping your hands open and palms up above the steering wheel, you should hand the officer your License, Registration, Insurance AND CCW paperwork without speaking. Letting him ask you if you are carrying gives him a moment to process the fact that you are legally certified to cary and that you voluntarily presented your CCW without being asked. This takes the instinct out of the equation and he will appreciate knowing that you are armed while he is dealing with you. Obviously each situation will present its own list of variables but this method used along with common sense and respect will usually get you through a traffic stop without incident.

 

[LeavingMass]

"Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm better than everyone else because I have a CCW license"

 

[duckcallinfool]

"Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm better than everyone else because I have a CCW license"

I see it a little different. I don't see it as bragging. As soon as he sees my CHL he knows many things about me. 1. I am not a felon. 2. I am not a mental case. 3. I am not an alcoholic. 4. I may be armed but I am not armed to harm him, or commit a crime, but rather, I am armed simply to protect myself and my family.

Imagine you are a cop and you stop a speeding vehicle on a very dark, mostly desert stretch of highway. You approach the vehicle not knowing what you will encounter. The driver politely hands you DL & CHL as soon as you request them. You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway. Why not ease their stress level immediately?


"Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm willing to be open and honest with you from the very beginning because I know you have to deal with some very bad people out here and I am not one of those people."

 

[Glock Fan]

I see it a little different. I don't see it as bragging. As soon as he sees my CHL he knows many things about me. 1. I am not a felon. 2. I am not a mental case. 3. I am not an alcoholic. 4. I may be armed but I am not armed to harm him, or commit a crime, but rather, I am armed simply to protect myself and my family.

Imagine you are a cop and you stop a speeding vehicle on a very dark, mostly desert stretch of highway. You approach the vehicle not knowing what you will encounter. The driver politely hands you DL & CHL as soon as you request them. You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway. Why not ease their stress level immediately?


"Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm willing to be open and honest with you from the very beginning because I know you have to deal with some very bad people out here and I am not one of those people."

+1 on that. Too bad that there are some places in the U.S. where LEO think that only "bad" civilians carry guns.



gf

 

[LeavingMass]

1: I see it a little different. I don't see it as bragging. As soon as he sees my CHL he knows many things about me. 1. I am not a felon. 2. I am not a mental case. 3. I am not an alcoholic. 4. I may be armed but I am not armed to harm him, or commit a crime, but rather, I am armed simply to protect myself and my family.

2: Imagine you are a cop and you stop a speeding vehicle on a very dark, mostly desert stretch of highway. You approach the vehicle not knowing what you will encounter. The driver politely hands you DL & CHL as soon as you request them. You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway. Why not ease their stress level immediately?

3: "Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm willing to be open and honest with you from the very beginning because I know you have to deal with some very bad people out here and I am not one of those people."

3: If you are stopped, you must've been breaking the law, you obviously aren't the "law abiding" citizen you spoke of in paragraph 1, so as a cop, guards should/will be up regardless if you are a CW carrier or not.

As a cop I should "believe" , "Hey he has a CCW permit, only law he breaks is speeding" .....?????

Just because "we" have a CCW permit doesn't mean we're all much better than all non-ccw carriers, but some of "us" seems to believe that.

I see it as "bragging" or trying to "get out of a ticket." Especially, since you said "You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway"

Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com
Link Removed

 

[duckcallinfool]

Glock Fan,

Apparently Massachusetts is one of those states.



LeavingMass,

I bet you have broken the speed limit in your lifetime once or twice yourself. I never said I was a fully law abiding citizen in paragraph 1. I said I am not a felon (no violent crimes), I am not a nut case, I am not a habitual drinker, and I care about the safety and security of my family and me.

So what you are saying is you would rather stop me with your guard up, adrenaline running high. Turn around and walk back to your car to call my information in. Then find out that you were at my window, while I was most likely armed and you had no idea. Rather than me simply handing you my CHL and you being able to ask me if I have my firearm with me and if so where it is immediately while you have your eyes on me in close proximity before you turn your back to me. I just don't get that. IF the officer is uncomfortable at that point and wishes to keep my firearm with him while he completes the stop, so be it. He will hear no complaint from me.

Oh yeah, just so you will be more familiar with Arkansas CHL and the Arkansas State Police, during my CHL class the instructor let us know that the Arkansas State Police had recently informed all instructors that they wanted all CHL holders to present their license if you are stopped. During my second encounter, the county deputy also imformed me that they changed to wanting to see it with your DL in a traffic stop or road block.

You do it your way, I'll do it my way. From your signature line, it looks as though you may be LEO in Massachusetts, maybe things are seen differently up there. So far so good for me down here in Arkansas. If one day I get stopped again, and the officer thinks I am bragging, then so be it. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

 

[LeavingMass]

Imagine you are a cop and you stop a speeding vehicle on a very dark, mostly desert stretch of highway. You approach the vehicle not knowing what you will encounter. The driver politely hands you DL & CHL as soon as you request (1) them. (2B) You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway. Why not ease their stress level immediately?


"Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm willing to be open and honest with you from the very beginning because I know you have to deal with(2) some very bad people out here and I am not one of those people."

2B in your above post contradicts 3 below

Glock Fan,

Apparently Massachusetts is one of those states.

LeavingMass,

I bet you have broken the speed limit in your lifetime once or twice yourself. I never said I was a fully law abiding citizen in paragraph 1. I said I am not a felon (no violent crimes), I am not a nut case, I am not a habitual drinker, and I care about the safety and security of my family and me.

So what you are saying is you would rather stop me with your guard up, adrenaline running high. Turn around and walk back to your car to call my information in. Then find out that you were at my window, (3)while I was most likely armed and you had no idea. Rather than me simply handing you my CHL and you being able to ask me if I have my firearm with me and if so where it is immediately while you have your eyes on me in close proximity before you turn your back to me. I just don't get that. IF the officer is uncomfortable at that point and wishes to keep my firearm with him while he completes the stop, so be it. He will hear no complaint from me.

Oh yeah, just so you will be more familiar with Arkansas CHL and the Arkansas State Police, during my CHL class the instructor let us know that the Arkansas State Police had recently informed all instructors that they wanted all CHL holders to present their license if you are stopped. During my second encounter, the county deputy also imformed me that they changed to wanting to see it with your DL in a traffic stop or road block.

You do it your way, I'll do it my way. From your signature line, it looks as though you may be LEO in Massachusetts, maybe things are seen differently up there. So far so good for me down here in Arkansas. If one day I get stopped again, and the officer thinks I am bragging, then so be it. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

A Cop "turning his back" on someone he just pulled over, is a very wreck-less cop.

Funny, you just got pulled over for "breaking the law" ( be it speeding, swerving, failure to stop, no headlights etc. ), but all of a sudden you claim "I am not a felon (no violent crimes), I am not a nut case, I am not a habitual drinker"

"Sorry officer, I only break motor vehicle laws. "

 

[Grumpy]

There has been much discussion in this thread both pro and con. Some states require that the CHL be presented to a LEO on first contact. Others don't. Never the less, when the citizen displays a courteous demeanor at the outset, the chances that the LEO will be courteous improve. These cops experience verbal confrontation day in and day out, why not surprise them.

It does, however, sound as though there are a few who are contributing to this thread who have deep pockets to pay lawyers and can't wait to delay their activities a number of hours or possibly over night at the risk of loosing their CHL. More power to you guys. I for one don't want to be the immovable object meeting the irresistible force of the guy with the badge on his chest.

 

[frank.macher]

Okay, I've been reading this. Not going to pot shot anyone here. I personally prefer to know I'm speaking with a person who is carrying if they are. I'm more likely to be uptight with the person I am speaking with regarding their CIVIL INFRACTION for a driving offense if they are authorized to carry and don't inform me before I run their license. Granted, I'm from Michigan, granted you have the right to refuse the search if asked, granted you have the right to keep silent. Usually, IMHO, the folks I have dealt with that have them are polite and let me know they have a permit, then I get to ask the question if they are carrying, and if yes, where it might be. It doesn't change my reason for stopping them, it gives me a better sense of whether or not to ask them to step out of the vehicle (weather also taken into consideration), leave them sitting in the car, and in the general sense of the storage of the handgun in the glove box, the paperwork may be right with it. When not informed and they open the glove box with a handgun there, it makes for a very tense response which CAN get out of hand quickly.

Now, I am not saying it is a universal policy, or that all cops most cops (insert troopers/sheriff your choice of LEO) agree, or that all are good or bad. Situations are always different in each stop, politeness is a two-way street, open dialogue is easier to deal with than civil disobedience, etc. BTW the most common issue I have to worry about is the knife that the average Joe Citizen forgets he has than those with a permit for a handgun.

I appreciate the open discourse, I also agree each side has its own merits. As a Reserve Dep. I know my partners and I are more than a little uneasy to find out someone has a permit but hasn't told us, it is a requirement in our state. Folks who are not carrying don't have to say they have a permit, but, if they are, they are supposed to announce while handing over both licenses and the other pertinent papers such as registration and insurance on the vehicle.

Nobody I've worked with has taken the Gestapo Jackboot mindset, I've seen courteous responses and thanks, I've seen them ask the driver to leave it in the glovebox, I've also seen an officer ask them to hand it over while they finish the ticket/warning, and then hand it right back.

All LEO's handle things in different manners too. Just the way you first speak to the LEO can change the entire outcome of the stop. Shouldn't, but it is common that courtesy begets courtesy where attitude is greeted with attitude.

I feel sorry for those of you who have has distasteful meetings with LEO's, all I can ask is that you don't judge all of them by the attitude of the minority.

Respectfully,

:agree:

 

[wuzfuz]

Laws differ from state to state

I was an LEO in Arizona before they passed the CCW law, when only a police officer or someone in the military could carry concealed, in connection with their duties. I also later had a CCW permit in Arizona, and received education at a Security Academy in California. In Arizona, you are required to inform an officer immediately if you are carrying with a permit. Most often, he will ask you where it is and tells you to stand very still while HE retrieves the weapon and unloads it. Sometimes he will ask to see the permit, which you must produce with a photo ID, such as a Driver's License, and that is all. As a former officer, I know if I approached a person and was formulating what I would say, I got irritated if they began talking, regardless of what they were saying. I am going to be getting a CCW permit in Washington, now that we have moved here, and they have no requirement to inform the officer you are carrying, but they recommend it as a courtesy. In Arizona, you have to take a 32 hour course which inclludes firing a qualification round on the range. Apparently, in Washington, you pay the fee and give two sets of prints, and the Chief of Police or Sheriff MUST issue you a license within 30 days, or 60 days if you have been in the state less than 90 days, and you have passed the background check. I think I would prefer that a person carrying a deadly weapon be trained in it's use and circumstances uner which he/she can use it. In Californis, on the back of your permit is a list of the guns you are allowed to carry. Arizona does not even use the word firearm, as they recognize that some people might prefer a concealed knife.

 

[wuzfuz]

LEO asking if you are armed

Ishi,

The courts have consistently supported the right of an officer to inquire if a person is armed, for his own protection. I was a deputy sheriff in Arizona and I often asked people if they were armed, and I was allowed by the Supreme Court to conduct a pat down search of anyone I was speaking to. Our County Attorney informed us that if a person refused to answer if he was armed or tried to refuse a pat down search to locate any weapons, he/she was to be charged with Obstructing Governmental Operations, as allowed in the Arizona Revised Statutes Criminal Code (Title 13). I never had any real problem when the person understood I was acting for my own protection, as he would probably do if the situation were reversed. As you point out, no law is being broken unless the person is carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, which was reduced a couple of years ago to a petty offense, which means a fine only, no jail. Obstructing does get you jail time as it is a Class One Misdemeanor, which means up to a year in the County Jail.

 

[duckcallinfool]

LeavingMass,

This thread has caused much confusion based on our personal feelings about notifying an officer. In the future please make sure you are informed of the proper ARKANSAS laws before posting on the ARKANSAS Forum.

I just searched through the forums on Arkansas CCA's website and have found the correct answer to the situation that was brought up at the beginning of this post. For all of those reading out there, Arkansas Concealed Carry Association works very closely with the Arkansas State Police and the Arkansas General Assembly on increasing the rights of CHL holders in the state.

Just for clarification on the actual law. Here is a post from the Grant Exton, Executive Director of the Arkansas Concealed Carry Association.

Link Removed

Re: Poll: How do the police feel about CHL in your area?
Posted by: Grant Exton (IP Logged)
Date: September 06, 2007 03:32PM


It's great to see the participation on the forum...this was our intent...information disemination and communication within the CHL community.

A few points to add on this topic.
1. Remember, as of July 31st, ACT 419 was changed this past legislature to require CHL holders to present their CHL license and ID whenever ID is requested by law enforcement...not just when a law-enforcement officer specifically asks for your CHL license.

2. As the Executive Director of ARCCA, I interact with the ASP on a weekly basis and have been very pleased with their level of knowledge concerning concealed carry law. I believe most other local law-enforcement is not very familiar with CHL law for the very point that they don't have to be...they are very rarely dealing with CHL holders who are committing offenses...and this is the positive flip side of thier deficient knowledge level.

3. 87% of all violent crime is committed outside the home...the realm of the CHL holder, and very little occurs while you are inside your vehicle...if you are only carrying while in your vehicle, you are taking a big risk.

Take care, and much thanks for the selfless work our law enforcement members do for us every day.

Grant Exton
ARCCA, Executive Director