Support for carry permits

[NavyLCDR]

I know that some members of this forum actually support carry permits, CCW permits, CPLs, whatever you want to call the government permission slip that some states require to either carry a gun in public at all, or to conceal the gun being carried. Personally, I see absolutely NOTHING positive associated with a permit/license requirement. Can somebody show us any benefit IN REALITY (not just in theory) to having a legal requirement to obtain a license/permit in order to legally carry a gun?

Edited: I did not mean to ask for benefits of complying with the law. I meant to ask for benefits of the legal requirement.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

Sorry bro but I'm in Vermont. We don't deal with that issue...

 

[Bikenut]

The following isn't exactly what you are looking for NavyLCDR yet your post hit one of my nerves.............

A rant...............

I personally hate carry permits with a passion simply because when the government is in control of issuing permits to be "allowed" to exercise a right then....

you don't have a right... all you have is....................................... permission to be allowed to indulge in a government controlled privilege.

And he who is in control of who is given, or denied, permission is..............................

in control.

Power comes from the barrel of a gun. He who has a gun has the power to either dominate.... or defend from being dominated. And when the government is in control of who is "allowed" to have the power that comes from the barrel of a gun you can be damn sure the government will eventually make sure that only those the government considers "acceptable" has permits and the power.

As it is... poor people who cannot afford to pay for the concealed carry classes that are mandated in order to qualify for a permit... and can't afford the fee for the permit... are automatically discriminated against just because................... they are poor.

But then... that is the whole purpose of a permit system... to ensure only those who are able to meet the qualifications (are acceptable) will be "allowed" to exercise their right to bear arms in a concealed manner.

The entire concept of the government being in control of a permit system that discriminates against people, especially an entire social group... the poor, being able to exercise their right to bear arms in any manner, is the very essence of "infringed".

And the sad thing is how many folks have fallen for the lie that a permit system prevents criminals from carrying guns.... why is it so hard for folks to understand that criminals are criminals because... they do not obey the law. And since criminals don't obey the law why in the pluperfect hell would anyone think those criminals are going to obey the concealed carry laws? I mean... DUH already!!!

In the interest of my personal integrity... I do have a carry permit for one reason... to stay out of jail. I cannot fight for the right to bear arms from a jail cell as well as I can when I am free. In my perfect world Michigan would join the other States that have Constitutional carry where no permits are required for any manner of carry.

End rant...

 

[Bikenut]

And I'll continue my rant with this...........

He who is supportive of a permit system in regards to the right to bear arms is............................

supportive of.............

gun control.

Think it through... any time the government is in control of who is, and who isn't, allowed to carry a concealed gun then... the government is controlling who can carry a gun.

And that is................... gun control.

So... if you really think that concealed carry permits that control who is allowed, and who ISN'T allowed, to carry a concealed gun is a good thing then ... like it or not... you are in favor of gun control.

And because you are in favor of gun control you are actually an anti gunner.

Now that I've pissed you off.... if you are intellectually honest... instead of attacking what I've said... or worse, using the liberal method of attempting to diminish or demean my message by attacking me personally... you will honestly reflect upon the conflict between having a right to bear arms and needing permission from the government to bear a concealed arm. And reconsider what the concealed carry permit system really is.

Kindly pay special attention to the part I put in bold about ................ who isn't allowed

I'm done ranting...

 

[whodat2710]

I think this is more what you are looking for.
-
Should they have ever been considered as an option rather than letting everyone have their rights? No. Guess what, the rights were infringed. In some states they can be considered as a stepping stone back to reality, or a chink in the armor of the gun control crowd. In most states, gun purchases have risen dramatically since Darth Hussein took office. This is good. In some states the number of permits issued has also shot through the roof. I don't have stats offhand, but I would bet a dollar that crime rates in those places have dropped.
-
If nothing else they are another way to prove that guns owned by non-criminals are a good thing. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Chicago. I know if I lived there I would pay whatever cost to be able to defend myself and family. Unfortunately, those in the high crime areas probably wont be able to afford it, so the numbers may not drop as dramatically.
-
In short, they are the only option in many states. And yes, it is wrong, but I'll keep getting mine renewed and I'll keep voting out incumbents that do not think it is important to uphold the Constitution.

 

[shaycasper]

NC is relaxing a lot of concealed carry laws but they still make it impossibl for some of us to conceal.

 

[no2gates]

And I'll continue my rant with this...........

He who is supportive of a permit system in regards to the right to bear arms is............................

supportive of.............

gun control.

Think it through... any time the government is in control of who is, and who isn't, allowed to carry a concealed gun then... the government is controlling who can carry a gun.

And that is................... gun control.

So... if you really think that concealed carry permits that control who is allowed, and who ISN'T allowed, to carry a concealed gun is a good thing then ... like it or not... you are in favor of gun control.

And because you are in favor of gun control you are actually an anti gunner.

Now that I've pissed you off.... if you are intellectually honest... instead of attacking what I've said... or worse, using the liberal method of attempting to diminish or demean my message by attacking me personally... you will honestly reflect upon the conflict between having a right to bear arms and needing permission from the government to bear a concealed arm. And reconsider what the concealed carry permit system really is.

Kindly pay special attention to the part I put in bold about ................ who isn't allowed

I'm done ranting...

Wait, do you really think that a felon should be allowed to carry a gun? Not that it's going to stop them (it's too damn easy for criminals to obtain guns).
I'm not a huge fan of government, but I really like the fact that only law abiding citizens can carry guns.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Wait, do you really think that a felon should be allowed to carry a gun? Not that it's going to stop them (it's too damn easy for criminals to obtain guns).
I'm not a huge fan of government, but I really like the fact that only law abiding citizens can carry guns.

Do you really think a permit system makes it illegal for felons to carry guns? Think about this, in states that do not have a permit system, felons can't have guns either. So who exactly are permits controlling...felons or citizens? Denial of a permit stops who exactly, felons or citizens?

 

[r1derbike]

In AR, they really rack-up the permit fees. It makes the state money, especially since CHCL licensees here have skyrocketed. It is good that many more have permits and many, many more have stocked with more hardware because of our insane administration and their partners in crime.

I believe there is a bill to reduce CHCL fees here, but don't know its status. I'll check on it.

But, yeah, I get miffed when I think of the money it cost me for my CHCL. I know instructors need to be paid here, but the administrative fees were excessive.

I also get miffed when I have to fork-over scarce money for something that should be given or affordable to all, but this is the 21st century, and things aren't like they used to be.

 

[tattedupboy]

Wait, do you really think that a felon should be allowed to carry a gun? Not that it's going to stop them (it's too damn easy for criminals to obtain guns).
I'm not a huge fan of government, but I really like the fact that only law abiding citizens can carry guns.

Show me where the Constitution denies ANYONE the right to keep and bear arms. No, I don't like the idea of felons carrying guns, but a thorough reading of the Constitution won't reveal anything that denies RKBA to ANYONE for any reason.

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[Firefighterchen]

Show me where the Constitution denies ANYONE the right to keep and bear arms. No, I don't like the idea of felons carrying guns, but a thorough reading of the Constitution won't reveal anything that denies RKBA to ANYONE for any reason.

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All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Felons can have their Rights stripped away by due process of law. Permit systems are not due process of law. Hence why states with no permit system still make it illegal for felons to obtain guns.

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[tattedupboy]

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Felons can have their Rights stripped away by due process of law. Permit systems are not due process of law. Hence why states with no permit system still make it illegal for felons to obtain guns.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

I disagree. The section you quoted applies to prisoners. Felons are not prisoners. They have paid their debt to society and should be treated as the non-prisoners that they are.

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[Firefighterchen]

I disagree. The section you quoted applies to prisoners. Felons are not prisoners. They have paid their debt to society and should be treated as the non-prisoners that they are.

Sent from my A200 using Tapatalk 4

I agree. Felons should stay in prison until their debt is paid, and when released if it's safe to do so, should have their Rights restored...unfortunately they release felons well before their debt is repaid. Fixing the justice and prison system though doesn't affect that felons aren't allowed firearms.

 

[tattedupboy]

I agree. Felons should stay in prison until their debt is paid, and when released if it's safe to do so, should have their Rights restored...unfortunately they release felons well before their debt is repaid. Fixing the justice and prison system though doesn't affect that felons aren't allowed firearms.

The system isn't perfect, but, once you're out, you're no longer in the custody of the state. That, in my opinion, means you've paid your debt to society. Anyone who has paid their debt to society should be treated as the free person he or she is. Freedom should NEVER be conditional.

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[no2gates]

I didn't say that the Constitution denies anyone to carry a gun. I said "do you think that a felon should be allowed to carry a gun."
There's a LOT that the Constitution didn't take into account when it was drafted many years ago. This is a much different world now.

Problem now is that criminals have too many rights and LEO's have too little rights.

 

[ezkl2230]

The following isn't exactly what you are looking for NavyLCDR yet your post hit one of my nerves.............

A rant...............

I personally hate carry permits with a passion simply because when the government is in control of issuing permits to be "allowed" to exercise a right then....

you don't have a right... all you have is....................................... permission to be allowed to indulge in a government controlled privilege.

And he who is in control of who is given, or denied, permission is..............................

in control.

Power comes from the barrel of a gun. He who has a gun has the power to either dominate.... or defend from being dominated. And when the government is in control of who is "allowed" to have the power that comes from the barrel of a gun you can be damn sure the government will eventually make sure that only those the government considers "acceptable" has permits and the power.

As it is... poor people who cannot afford to pay for the concealed carry classes that are mandated in order to qualify for a permit... and can't afford the fee for the permit... are automatically discriminated against just because................... they are poor.

But then... that is the whole purpose of a permit system... to ensure only those who are able to meet the qualifications (are acceptable) will be "allowed" to exercise their right to bear arms in a concealed manner.

The entire concept of the government being in control of a permit system that discriminates against people, especially an entire social group... the poor, being able to exercise their right to bear arms in any manner, is the very essence of "infringed".

And the sad thing is how many folks have fallen for the lie that a permit system prevents criminals from carrying guns.... why is it so hard for folks to understand that criminals are criminals because... they do not obey the law. And since criminals don't obey the law why in the pluperfect hell would anyone think those criminals are going to obey the concealed carry laws? I mean... DUH already!!!

In the interest of my personal integrity... I do have a carry permit for one reason... to stay out of jail. I cannot fight for the right to bear arms from a jail cell as well as I can when I am free. In my perfect world Michigan would join the other States that have Constitutional carry where no permits are required for any manner of carry.

End rant...

We're still working on getting Constitutional carry passed, but considering the opposition from the east side of the state and our illustrious nerd, anti-Second Amendment governor, that isn't likely to happen any time soon. And if the balance of power in the state legislature changes next election or we get a democrat governor, look for things to go downhill quickly in Michigan.

 

[dad45acp]

I agree. Felons should stay in prison until their debt is paid, and when released if it's safe to do so, should have their Rights restored...unfortunately they release felons well before their debt is repaid. Fixing the justice and prison system though doesn't affect that felons aren't allowed firearms.

Do you have any concept on how many felons re-offend when they're out of jail? Or how many of them continue with lifelong substance abuse problems and have sociopathic behaviors that never get counseling and/or fail to comply with taking their prescription meds? Just because they "pay their debt" to society in a jail doesn't mean they're cured from being a danger to society. Granted, if they want to get their hands on a gun they probably will someway or somehow regardless but having their "rights restored" is just outrageous to me.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Do you have any concept on how many felons re-offend when they're out of jail? Or how many of them continue with lifelong substance abuse problems and have sociopathic behaviors that never get counseling and/or fail to comply with taking their prescription meds? Just because they "pay their debt" to society in a jail doesn't mean they're cured from being a danger to society. Granted, if they want to get their hands on a gun they probably will someway or somehow regardless but having their "rights restored" is just outrageous to me.

So... back to my original question. How does a carry permit system keep felons and mentally ill from carrying guns? What good does the carry permit system do? To me, the only thing it does is require me to pay to prove my innocence to the government. (Regardless of whether or not we think they should have the right to carry).

 

[NavyLCDR]

Sorry bro but I'm in Vermont. We don't deal with that issue...

But you are in a unique position to provide an answer to my original question. Please list for us all the problems that you have in Vermont that having a carry permit requirement would solve. I'll bet I can guess what your answer is

 

[NavyLCDR]

Do you really think a permit system makes it illegal for felons to carry guns? Think about this, in states that do not have a permit system, felons can't have guns either. So who exactly are permits controlling...felons or citizens? Denial of a permit stops who exactly, felons or citizens?

Felons can have their Rights stripped away by due process of law. Permit systems are not due process of law. Hence why states with no permit system still make it illegal for felons to obtain guns.

And those are the best points of all.