Stand Your Ground Law Under Attack

[Seeya]

Dan Gelber was someone I was willing to vote for in the past. He just lost any support I was willing to give him with this.

Repeal Stand Your Ground

Mar 23, 2012

By Dan




Trayvon Martin, unarmed and with his entire life before him, was shot and killed by a man who claims he had every right to “stand his ground.” Floridians are understandably outraged that Mr. Zimmerman will be able to defend himself (if he is charged at all) with the benefit and protections of the Stand Your Ground law.



Governor Scott’s announcement that he is creating a task force to look at the law is a callow attempt to placate the frustrations of thousands of Floridians who believe justice for Trayvon is already too late and too elusive. Frankly a “task force” is an insult, and patronizes the clear fact that the law should never have been passed in the first place.



The Florida Legislature, which is completing a Special Session on redistricting next week, should stay in Tallahassee and repeal the Stand Your Ground provision outright.



There is no need for a Task Force since the law was unnecessary. When the law was enacted in 2005, its proponents could not point to a single person in Florida who was victimized by over-zealous prosecutors or cops. Not one person was singled out as needing the protection of being able to “Stand Your Ground.” It was a solution in search of a problem. Notwithstanding, the legislature created a defense that endorsed irresponsible, malicious and dangerous behavior. A legislature that is constantly claiming it values life, actually devalued life by telling Floridians that they no longer need walk away from an escalating incident even if they can do so safely.



The legislature has a chance to make it right next week. Trayvon deserves at least that

Go to his blog and leave a comment.

Link Removed

 

[B2Tall]

Who, other than the media, is saying that Zimmerman won't be charged because of the SYG law???

Law or no law, the police/DA still have to collect evidence and put together a case in any shooting. People are reacting as if this already a done deal and that Zimmerman will walk. Far from it. If he walks it'll be because of lack of evidence, not because Florida has a SYG law.

SYG says (for example) that if somebody goes berserk and charges me with a baseball bat, I don't have to try and run away....I'm free to defend myself on the spot and at that moment. Repealing a SYG law and forcing a victim to try to flee may very well be signing their death certificate. What if the victim can't run faster or reach "safety" in time?? They basically have to subject themselves to the attack, an attack that might very well kill them, before they can defend themselves.

 

[cmhbob]

We cannot let them corrupt this law. Trayvon Martin had the same right to stand his ground as Zimmerman did. This is more about a poor investigation by Sanford PD than it is SYG.

 

[B2Tall]

We cannot let them corrupt this law. Trayvon Martin had the same right to stand his ground as Zimmerman did. This is more about a poor investigation by Sanford PD than it is SYG.

And the media turning a tragedy into a circus. No surprise there.

 

[marcus40]

This has really gotten out of hand!!!
Marcus

 

[GreenhawK]

People use temporary insanity as a defense all the time, but I don't see an uproar for repeal of any laws that deal with that.

From anything that I have seen about it so far, I don't believe that it is a valid defense. If they claim it or not. It is looking like Zimmerman followed the kid and picked a fight. If you start a fight that law doesn't apply. Even if he tries to get away from that point forward.

I think that they teen is the one who had the right to stand his ground by fighting. Then Zimmerman made the bad decision of shooting.

Keep in mind that that is from the information out now, and that I well understand that there is most likely information out there that we don't have yet. They should give some time for the legal system to work before jumping to the conclusion that he is going to get off.

 

[Nightmare45]

The law did not kill this kid, an individual that broke the law did, prosecute him to the extent of the Law assuming he actually broke any law. Following he kid is no against the law on a public street, did the kid then charge Zimmerman don't know, wait for all the evidence to come out then render a verdict. Based on Al Sharptons previous rape cases, anything he said is second, third or with no knowledge at all. Let the Law work. Since the threats from several of the radical folks involved I will be carrying extra ammo.

 

[Go99]

I posted the following on his blog but so far it’s not been posted for everyone to see, in fact it’s showing only one post, a person agreeing with him, I can’t believe there hasn’t been more posts.
“ Couldn’t disagree more, let’s not have a knee jerk reaction and let this play out in court. It is a right, not a privilege, to protect yourself. If this person is found that he wasn’t involved in self-protection then by current law he will be disciplined as he should be. It always makes me suspicious when government jumps first then asks questions later just to appease the crowd and possibly, in this case, having anti-gun alterative motives.”

 

[tattedupboy]

Stand your ground as it was intended should be allowed to stand. This shooting was in no way related to anything having to do with that.

 

[wjh2657]

Who, other than the media, is saying that Zimmerman won't be charged because of the SYG law???

Law or no law, the police/DA still have to collect evidence and put together a case in any shooting. People are reacting as if this already a done deal and that Zimmerman will walk. Far from it. If he walks it'll be because of lack of evidence, not because Florida has a SYG law.

SYG says (for example) that if somebody goes berserk and charges me with a baseball bat, I don't have to try and run away....I'm free to defend myself on the spot and at that moment. Repealing a SYG law and forcing a victim to try to flee may very well be signing their death certificate. What if the victim can't run faster or reach "safety" in time?? They basically have to subject themselves to the attack, an attack that might very well kill them, before they can defend themselves.

There is no real evidence. The crime scene was not sealed and very little if any forensics was done. Basically the police procedures either were stupid or cover up. I think it was simple lack of professionalism but you know the public is going to think coverup. With what they have, he will walk (whether actually being a murderer or not, we'll never really know and neither will a jury). All evidence is gone or destroyed.

In Tennessee, a self defense shooting is not a "done deed" and washed away. The police still do a forensic investigation. Even if it obvious there was real SD, they do it just to cover all bases.

 

[B2Tall]

There is no real evidence. The crime scene was not sealed and very little if any forensics was done. Basically the police procedures either were stupid or cover up. I think it was simple lack of professionalism but you know the public is going to think coverup. With what they have, he will walk (whether actually being a murderer or not, we'll never really know and neither will a jury). All evidence is gone or destroyed.

In Tennessee, a self defense shooting is not a "done deed" and washed away. The police still do a forensic investigation. Even if it obvious there was real SD, they do it just to cover all bases.

I agree. This whole thing has been turned into nothing more than a morbid photo-op for politicians, media whores, race-baiters, and the like.

 

[BluesStringer]

From anything that I have seen about it so far, I don't believe that it is a valid defense.

First, howdy neighbor, and welcome to the forums.

Second, using the word "from anything" you've seen you can't rationalize a valid defense for Zimmerman says to me that you're suffering from at least one of two possible deficiencies; either you haven't read much (if any) of the eye witness and/or police reports, or you are simply inclined to believe agenda-driven media accounts over those of aforementioned eye witnesses and LEOs.

It is looking like Zimmerman followed the kid and picked a fight. If you start a fight that law doesn't apply. Even if he tries to get away from that point forward.

I think that they teen is the one who had the right to stand his ground by fighting. Then Zimmerman made the bad decision of shooting.

Keep in mind that that is from the information out now, and that I well understand that there is most likely information out there that we don't have yet. They should give some time for the legal system to work before jumping to the conclusion that he is going to get off.

Not one single thing you say here is supported by the available evidence from witnesses, the voice heard on multiple 911 calls yelling for help, the timing of the shot in relation to those pleas for help, Martin's father's unequivocal declaration to police that the voice yelling for help was not his son's, Zimmerman's assertion to the 911 operator that he was talking to, that Martin had changed direction and was now coming towards him, all of this adds up to supporting Zimmerman's version of events more than the wild conjecture coming from a feeding-frenzied media that Zimmerman initiated the contact with Martin. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman did anything but see a big guy wearing a hoodie wandering his neighborhood in the wee hours of the morning in the rain, and though he didn't do himself any favors in the way he talked to the 911 operator, he did call 911, rather than just running around trying to pick a fight.

There are aspects to this case that make me extremely uncomfortable with Zimmerman. But then again, the media has done such a fine job of absolutely polluting the public's understanding of the facts of the case, that I guess I shouldn't be surprised how much misinformation is being repeated. And also because of the media treatment, I'm second-guessing myself for the discomfort I feel with Zimmerman. I know for a fact that we aren't getting the truth from any mainstream media source, not the nightly news, and not the talking heads on talk-radio. The first-hand accounts by witnesses, as well as the observations of Zimmerman by the LEOs on the scene, are being completely ignored, and are all consistent with his version of events.

As to the OP, I found this little tid-bit interesting on Dan Gelber's blog:

Political advertisement paid for and approved by Dan Gelber, Democrat, for Attorney General.

Why, in this day and age, anyone concerned with gun rights could or would support a Democrat for any position that might have the slightest bit of influence on gun issues, is well beyond my ability to comprehend.

Blues

 

[SR40c]

And the media turning a tragedy into a circus. No surprise there.

Indeed... After all, isn't it the mantra of the progressive left? "Never let a good crisis go to waste and when all else fails, create one".

With the help of our state run media of course.

 

[Woody1960]

Not one single thing you say here is supported by the available evidence from witnesses, the voice heard on multiple 911 calls yelling for help, the timing of the shot in relation to those pleas for help, Martin's father's unequivocal declaration to police that the voice yelling for help was not his son's, Zimmerman's assertion to the 911 operator that he was talking to, that Martin had changed direction and was now coming towards him, all of this adds up to supporting Zimmerman's version of events . There is zero evidence that Zimmerman did anything but see a big guy wearing a hoodie wandering his neighborhood in the wee hours of the morning in the rain, and though he didn't do himself any favors in the way he talked to the 911 operator, he did call 911, rather than just running around trying to pick a fight.

witnesses, as well as the observations of Zimmerman by the LEOs on the scene, are being completely ignored, and are all consistent with his version of events.





Blues

This right may be all that is needed to let the guy walk.I would bet, it will be used in court.

 

[GreenhawK]

I believe the outcome of this case depends on what happened after Zimmerman got out of his vehicle. I wouldn't be happy if I was walking down the road and some guy pulled up behind me and got out either. I would like to know what happened there. We may never know what happened since there is only one witnesses now. I don't see how that after Zimmerman being so agitated on the phone with 911 would be cool when confronting Martin. Maybe he was though. Just because Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked at the time of the shooting doesn't give him the right to shoot. It's all about what happened in the gap of information that we don't have.

 

[Nightmare45]

Presumption of Innocence????????? Where have I heard this, oh yea in the previous USA that existed prior to rampant press trials. My home is about 1,000 miles from the incident any statement I made would be as worthless as Al Sharpton and J. Jacksons. We do still have courts in the America I am familiar with.

 

[B2Tall]

I believe the outcome of this case depends on what happened after Zimmerman got out of his vehicle. I wouldn't be happy if I was walking down the road and some guy pulled up behind me and got out either. I would like to know what happened there. We may never know what happened since there is only one witnesses now. I don't see how that after Zimmerman being so agitated on the phone with 911 would be cool when confronting Martin. Maybe he was though. Just because Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked at the time of the shooting doesn't give him the right to shoot. It's all about what happened in the gap of information that we don't have.

I agree with this post.

But if I were on private property and the person was polite and identified themselves as a member of the local neighborhood watch, I would understand and tell them that I was visiting family over on such-and-such street. That's how the encounter should have gone down. Like I said before - there's a right way and a wrong way, and I'd be more than happy to cooperate with the "right way". I consider it to be a tiny bit of civic duty that helps cut down crime.

 

[wjh2657]

What Zimmerman actually did, justified or not, doesn't really matter to the gun community now. No matter how this goes down, the damage is done. This is an election year and we have a huge national public outcry against the Florida SD laws. Many other states have laws that are similar (Stand your ground, shoot to defend property, weapon can be used to settle arguments/fights, this is an inferred feature not an explicitly implied fact). Legislators in several states are already reviewing their state laws and writing up changes. This incident is going to force states to be more stringent in their wording of their SD laws. Make no mistake, this incident is going to put some severe dampers on our Handgun Carry regulations. I don't believe that it will do away with Castle Doctrine laws, but it will modify them with some severe restrictions. It is going to greatly change the "Stand your ground" principles of state laws.
If your state laws are already written "tight" ( Tennessee does not allow the introduction of a firearm into an already in progress "mutual" altercation ) bring a gun to an argument or fist fight in Tennessee and the question will be how much self defense mitigates your Manslaughter charge! Many states mirror Tennessee's law and these probably will not see any change. If your state law was written "loose' such that it is strictly a personal call if SD is warranted without any parameters, the chances are very good that you will see change.

The secondary damage will be felt in Reciprocity agreements. Some states may be leary of honoring permits from states with "loose" stand your ground rules. Although all of these agreements are written such that the hosting state's laws apply, the fear is that mindsets are such that many will not check up on local laws and assume their home state laws apply. (We have already discussed some inadvertent violations on this forum.)

We will feel some strong "backwash" from this incident. That was not Mr. Zimmerman's intent but it will be the result.

 

[GreenhawK]

I agree. So far the Alabama legislators have said that they havent had people calling in to change the laws from what the few that i have heard comment have said. It is still early though. You will probably start to see anti gun groups starting to lobby in every state that has a stand your ground law.

I am very concerned about what will happen. Not only about changes in gun laws, but also what type of retaliation we will see. I see a possibility of something like after the Rodney King beating.

 

[BluesStringer]

I am very concerned about what will happen. Not only about changes in gun laws, but also what type of retaliation we will see. I see a possibility of something like after the Rodney King beating.

Do you see that possibility happening in places other than Central Florida, like here for example, or only in the area where the event took place?

It's kind of an interesting specter for me because my wife and I moved to Alabama from the LA area just a month after the King riots settled down. Wasn't the only reason we moved, but it certainly put some fire under our butts to make a decision.

While I don't think the facts of this particular case justifies it, I agree with you that there are agendas at play that are spinning up enough anger to explode into riots in the streets. Not sure it would go nationwide, or even go much beyond the locale of the events, but the political backlash against SYG laws could certainly go nationwide, and almost assuredly will to one degree or another. That is when gun-owners will have to decide how important standing our ground really is.

Blues