Spoke to a Judge... What is he talking about?


The two most prominent points in Mr. Fish's case were a question of which law applied, and the fact that he used such a large caliber. Since AZ had passed a new law, there has been discussion as to whether the new law applied, or the older one.

You are so correct! Mr. Fish's 10 mm bullets were HUGE! :haha:
 

You are so correct! Mr. Fish's 10 mm bullets were HUGE! :haha:

actually a 10MM uses the same bullet sizes as our trusty 40 S&W. the normal bullet is 180 grain and the max Ive seen on the market is 200 Grain. Both still substantially less than a 45 acp. the main difference between the 40 and the 10mm is the brass a 10mm case is about 1/8" longer to accept a higher charge. I have 10mm brass cut down now that I use to reload my 40.
 
Yeah, ONE millimeter bigger than the 9mm so many think is an anemic defense round. Go figure.

(Whatever would they think of Guncrafter Industries' .50GI?)
 
Spoke to a judge

Fun, I was a deputy sheriff in the #3 county in Arizona, and had a CCW permit for two terms after I left the department. I would hazard a guess that .45 ACP and 9mm Are the two top loads carried for self-defense in Arizona. I myself carried a .45 ACP, as I personally do not feel the 9mm is adequate for self defense, especially after seeing a case where a 9mm bullet ricocheted off a guy's forehead. I wil look up Mr. Fish's case, but I sincerely doubt he was convicted he was convicted for carrying 10mm ammo, which is only one millimeter larger than the ubiquitous nine,and .05 inch smaller than the .45 ACP. Something the anti-gun people should know is that when Arizona was considering legalizing concealed carry, almost every police chief in the state spoke up against it. They claimed that there would be vigilantes cruising the streets, looking for purse snatchers to blow away. These never showed up. Crimes against persons dropped dramatically, and I think it was due to the BG not knowing who might be carrying. There have been a few, very few,in relation to the permits issued, of permits being revoked for cause, and most of them were on technnical grounds. I found it interesting that after the assassination attempt on his life, someone asked President Raegan what he thught of gun control law now. He replied he wished it had happened in Arizona (his in-laws lived at the Biltmore in Phoenix), because 25 people in the audience would have pulled their legal handguns and shot the assassin repeatedly. When I was a deputy, there was no provision in Arizona for anyone but police or military to carry concealed, and I even had one of our corporals tell me I could not carry off-duty. He was later reprimanded for criticizing a deputy for carrying a shotgun on a man with a gun call.
 
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I took the class yesterday and of course the topic came up. Our instructer suggested we use the same type of ammo the local PD uses. He felt that would eliminate the agrument as to the use of improper ammo. Sounded very logical to me. Naturally you may not be using the same cal. as the local law enforcement but you should use the same brand of ammo.
 
I wil look up Mr. Fish's case, but I sincerely doubt he was convicted he was convicted for carrying 10mm ammo, which is only one millimeter larger than the ubiquitous nine,and .05 inch smaller than the .45 ACP.

Wuz, I would not have thought so either, until I read this. Read all 6 pages of the story. It was quite the eye-opener for me. Sure gives rise to questions as to how unfair our judicial system can be, Blind Justice is only as blind as the courts allow her to be. Not only did they focus on the 10 mm, but on the fact that they were hollow points and designed to kill! Shocking and scary that normal, everyday citizens are allowed the type of ammunition designed for self defense!
 
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A prosecuting attorney will go after anything whether it makes sense or not. They will spin most unbelievable story into a something that a jury will buy hook line and sinker. A good defense attorney should have pointed out that ANY bullet is designed to kill. The prosecutor has to spin the story so the jury feels for the BG. The defense has to spin the same story so the jury sides with you. Two different versions of the same exact story. The prosecution will be looking for anti gun jurors while the defense will be looking for pro gun jurors.

Self defense rounds should be large enough and powerful enough to stop a BG with the fewest shots fired. What's better for the public? Firing one or two .45 JHP's or emptying a 15 round magazine full of 9mm FMJ to accomplish the same task? Which scenario is most likely to inflict collateral damage? That's the sort of thing the public doesn't understand.
 
No offense to your BIL, but he is wrong.

The Judge you spoke with is an idiot! My brother-in-law is a chief DA in Philly. (Where JHP's are illegal, I found this out on a visit form Florida.) He didn't have a problem with the JHP's, he just told me not shoot anyone with them. He thinks it's great that there are concealed carry laws. In some cases he feel it makes his job at prosicuting them easier because they can't testify. He told me it doesn't matter how many rounds the gun can hold, just how many rounds were fired and where did they go. The next time I visited Philly I changed my ammo to EFMJ, there not JHP's

I recently moved from PA to CT, and there is no law concerning JHP in PA. In fact, I would hazard that JHP's are carried nearly universally by both permit holders and law enforcement alike. I was a law enforcement officer in a metro PD, and there was no limit on ammunition types (barring Teflon coated).

The state of PA has a Preemption Clause and denies all counties, municipalities and townships from regulating the ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms or ammunition. The wording is thus:

18 PA.C.S. § 6120 states, "No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth."

Unfortunately, a lazy DA can cause a lot of trouble within a municipality. It is common for the Da's office to submit memos to local law enforcement officers regarding new, out-dated, or confusing laws. Can you imagine a Chief District Attorney like Farglov's brother in law issuing a memo containing the information that he erroneously gave Farglov? After a few successful lawsuits, up go the property taxes to pay for judgements. Before commenting on any law, look it up. Even lowly patrol officers like myself had an easily referenced book of PA criminal codes in the car.

Therefore, Farglov, next time you are in Philly, carry the rounds that YOU think will protect your person and your family best.
:yes4:
 
So, I had an interesting conversation with a local district magistrate. He informed me that if I were to use my .40 cal Taurus for self defense (which is what it is for), with a full magazine of federal HydraShocks, I could be charged with manslaughter?

Does it matter how many rounds are in your self defense carry gun? Does it matter what type of ammunition it is? I am confused by the whole deal. Is he just telling me something so he can hear himself talk or what? I have never found any type of written rules to govern such a statement.

Anyone help me out? I am just trying to find the truth. Has anyone ever even heard of soemthing like this?

Also what are the rules for a properly permitted concealed carry weapon? are they to be unloaded when carried or is it ok to have a concealed carry cocked and locked?
In PA no. Unless the judge is originally from NJ (which is possible) I don't understand his reasoning. Hollowpoint ammunition is illegal in NJ for civilian use.
 
In PA, Teflon coated bullets are a no no. for criminal use....but I dont think Id be the test case for concealed carry

18 Pa. C.S. §6121. Certain Bullets Prohibited.
PA is one of the States that passed a State ban on armor piercing handgun ammunition before the Fed did. Such rounds are prohibited by the Fed too so whether there's a state law prohibiting it is irrelevant now. NV has a similar restriction under NRS 202.273 which became law back in 1983. The KTW round caused a lot of needless hype.
 
There is an urban legend that a jury will convict a self-defense shooter based upon the "lethality" of the ammo used and whether or not that ammo was handloaded. It's total B.S. and there is not one case history that anyone has found where the type of ammo has been considered, as long as there is no specific prohibition to the type of ammo used, such as armor piercing, or in NJ - hollowpoints.
Actually there is. There's Harold Fish for the use of 10mm rounds which were a factor. If you look at the SAAMI specs, full power 10mm is essentially .40 S&W +P as it has about 10% more PSI than standard pressure .40 S&W.

There's also Daniel Bias whose use of handloaded ammunition in his spouse's revolver was a contributing factor in his conviction for manslaughter. The rounds were light loads.
 
Your Municipal Judge is an idiot!!! Of course you carry cocked and locked if carrying a single action auto. If you are carry a revolver or a DA auto you can carry it to capacity.

If you can legally pack then I know of no law regulatng the type of ammo unless your jurisdiction does, then it's your responsibility to know the law at hand, or if the ammo is proscribed by law in and of itself.

For better or worse the entire reason for carrying is you might actually have to defend yourself and that might mean shooting somebody. The rules are the same for a civilian as a LEO, if you have the right to shoot somebody, it is implicit that you have the right to kill them. Otherwise why have you drawn your weapon?

RWT
 
Find out what round your local police department carries and carry that. It will most likely be Gold Dot or Hydra Shoks. I personally stay away from any kind of +P rounds. "You were carrying +P ammo. Your intent was to clearly kill my clients gang banging son." My Kimber Ultra Carry II has a problem feeding Gold Dots because they are a little bit shorter than most other rounds. Remington Premiums work fine though. So thats what i am stuck with.
 
The Judge you spoke with is an idiot! My brother-in-law is a chief DA in Philly. (Where JHP's are illegal, I found this out on a visit form Florida.) He didn't have a problem with the JHP's, he just told me not shoot anyone with them. He thinks it's great that there are concealed carry laws. In some cases he feel it makes his job at prosicuting them easier because they can't testify. He told me it doesn't matter how many rounds the gun can hold, just how many rounds were fired and where did they go. The next time I visited Philly I changed my ammo to EFMJ, there not JHP's


What do the police carry in Philly? If they carry JHP, then so would I.

Some zealot anti-2A prosecutors like to imply malice if a SD shooting involves hollow points. Carry what your local/ state PD carry. If you are charged, call on a trooper to tell the jury what they carry and why. Then ask the jury if the police are malicious.

- my $.02
 
Reading the Fish case, there is a whole lot more than the ammo used here.

YES, one juror did not she had concerns about the whole "hollow point" thing and agreed that every proscecutor is going to make every hollow point into a Black Talon Cop Killer bullet in the jury's mind, but that same proscecutor will make a FMJ that goes through a wall and kills a bystander armor peircing in a jury's mind also so you damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What convicted Fish however (IMHO), was the medical examiners testimony that the wounds were defensive and that the victim was standing still when shot. That would say that the charge and therefore the threat had stopped and that Fish had no reason to fire. If true, then Fish was wrong!

If you are carrying and an unarmed person is charging you and threatening to kill you, you MAY have valid reason to fear for your life and to use lethal force. But if that same person, even if still threatening to kill you is standing still, and as you raise your firearm puts his arms up as if to defend his body from the impending bullet, and you pull the trigger anyway, THAT is second degree murder as NO VAILD THREAT EXISTS!

THAT appears to be the question the jury was addressing in Fish, coupled with the fact that the ME also stated the wounds were to the side of the body (hardly where a charging person would be hit).

Also, the time delay and apparent lie of the time of the shooting and of the time delay seem to figure prominently in this case.

The bullet information seems more as supportive to the fact that Fish apparently was known to brandish his gun at other times publicly, attempting to indicate that he was a person looking for a reason to shoot someone and that carrying a "larger than normal" weapon was an extension of that manifestation.

However, from the evdience, I think this same jury would have convicted him had he used a .22, and that using this case as an indicator of jury consideration of caliber as the deciding factor is simply total bull.
 
I must be missing something, It seems to me that the fmj's would be illegal because they are in and out putting others in danger, where as hp's may still go thru but loose alot in the process taking away some risk to bystanders. I always carry locked and loaded with gold dot JHP. that judge should be removed from the bench.
 
I must be missing something, It seems to me that the fmj's would be illegal because they are in and out putting others in danger, where as hp's may still go thru but loose alot in the process taking away some risk to bystanders. I always carry locked and loaded with gold dot JHP. that judge should be removed from the bench.

Please don't say that too loud in New Jersey.
 
This is the kind of crap that the anit-gunners love to hear....."well....a judge said.....".....Unless the ammo is prohibited by state law, carry all ya want. And as far as handloads are concerned....I may be in the minority, but I USUALLY load "underpower" as I mostly load for target shooting ammo.
 

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