Smoothing Ruffled Feathers

[mdkoh]

My wife works for a Church run Pre-school. One of the children there, her father, is a devout OC'er. In AZ concelaed carry w/o a permit is allowed so long as you are not prohibited and 21 or older. We have a relationship with this family and my wife has asked me several times to talk to him (he is 22) about concealing better so as not to scare the other parents. Recently, one child reached out and touched his holster and the childs parent freaked out, began complaining to the School director about our friend carrying a weapon into the school. Needless to say this was not setting well with the school administrators who were ready to act if something was not resolved quickly.

The school Director agrees with open and conceal carry, they do not have a problem with it but it is causing an issue with the other parents. I have talked to him a couple of times with limited success. He has been told he will be banned from the property if this continues. My wife approached me with this dilemma and here is what I did.

The few conversations I had with him I tried to explain that when we put on the gun we become ambassadors for the Second Amendment. We are not there to become "in your face" advocates, thats for the occupy crowd and left wing extremists. We are to be calm, undrstanding and informational activists. The last thing we want to do is insight anger and cause fear in others of gun owners especially those who might be without opinion on the subject. After the last talk I still had one report that things were still not to the schools liking. So I stepped out and offered him the chance to take a gun safety course which he had never taken. This class also qualified him for the Az concealed carry permit. To my delight he agreed!! I talked to the instructor, I explained why my friend was there and what was happening at the school. The instructor thanked me for the information and made it a point to dwell on the resposibility of being an armed citizen. Most classes will speak on this subject but never to the degree that I saw presented at this praticular class.

After the class, and after we had qualified on the range, driving home he said he did not realize just how much influence his decisions had effected others. I took a moment to share my feelings (as I had done a few times before) how decisions we make now, can can have a profound effect in the future. Words alone will not secure our rights, sometimes to influence others takes the actions of people who are more discreet about how they carry their firearms. It has only been a week but I have yet to hear a complaint or a comment on his behavior.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this and if you think I handled this properly? I know time will tell, I would like to thin my small monetary investment in this class will somehow influence this young man when carrying, open or concealed. I am open to your comments. Thank for them and for listening to my story.

 

[SGB]

I give you kudos for going out of your way to keep the peace but I'd like to know who counseled the parents with unreasonable fear of concealed firearms carriers? Maybe they should have been invited as well

 

[ryancampbell02]

I think you handled this great. You took the problem and didnt try to force someone to act as you wanted them to. Plus he is now educated and will hopefully be more cautious of his arms. Great deal.

 

[FatCrotch]

I was thinking why aren't they teaching these kids the "keep your hands to yourself rule" like I was taught??? I remember my preschool days. I got in trouble for that stuff. I agree you should be able to carry where ever and how ever but "foolishness is locked up in the heart of a child" so he should have definitely concealed the gun better in my opinion. You did the best u could. Thank you for defending our rights!!!

 

[LkWd_Don]

I think you went above and beyond and give kudo's for what you have done, but I still see that you have more to do. Let me explain. Now that you have soothed the nerves over seeing the weapon, the fact that the children were being grabby needs to be addressed with the School Director. Maybe bringing in someone with Authority, LEO or Gun Safety Instructor willing to freely educate all the children at the same time in the concept of You see a firearm, you do not touch, you leave it alone and contact an adult. Knowing that most Churches are Non-Profit Charitable organizations and knowing this is a Church run school, a Gun Safety Instructor should relish the idea of getting a donation letter from this kind of Charity where he can claim maximum value for his donation.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The school Director agrees with open and conceal carry, they do not have a problem with it but it is causing an issue with the other parents.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this and if you think I handled this properly? I know time will tell, I would like to thin my small monetary investment in this class will somehow influence this young man when carrying, open or concealed. I am open to your comments. Thank for them and for listening to my story.

This is a state licensed child care facility, right? You might want to look at the Arizona Administrative Code for the child care facility license:

Link Removed

R9-5-301. General Licensee Responsibilities

H. A licensee shall prohibit the use or possession of the following items when an enrolled child is on facility premises, during hours of operation, or in any motor vehicle used for transporting an enrolled child:

5. A firearm as defined in A.R.S. § 13-105.

In order to keep your license, you must prohibit firearms on the property when children are present. It's the same way in Washington.

 

[Firefighterchen]

My wife works for a Church run Pre-school. One of the children there, her father, is a devout OC'er. In AZ concelaed carry w/o a permit is allowed so long as you are not prohibited and 21 or older. We have a relationship with this family and my wife has asked me several times to talk to him (he is 22) about concealing better so as not to scare the other parents. Recently, one child reached out and touched his holster and the childs parent freaked out, began complaining to the School director about our friend carrying a weapon into the school. Needless to say this was not setting well with the school administrators who were ready to act if something was not resolved quickly.

The school Director agrees with open and conceal carry, they do not have a problem with it but it is causing an issue with the other parents. I have talked to him a couple of times with limited success. He has been told he will be banned from the property if this continues. My wife approached me with this dilemma and here is what I did.

The few conversations I had with him I tried to explain that when we put on the gun we become ambassadors for the Second Amendment. We are not there to become "in your face" advocates, thats for the occupy crowd and left wing extremists. We are to be calm, undrstanding and informational activists. The last thing we want to do is insight anger and cause fear in others of gun owners especially those who might be without opinion on the subject. After the last talk I still had one report that things were still not to the schools liking. So I stepped out and offered him the chance to take a gun safety course which he had never taken. This class also qualified him for the Az concealed carry permit. To my delight he agreed!! I talked to the instructor, I explained why my friend was there and what was happening at the school. The instructor thanked me for the information and made it a point to dwell on the resposibility of being an armed citizen. Most classes will speak on this subject but never to the degree that I saw presented at this praticular class.

After the class, and after we had qualified on the range, driving home he said he did not realize just how much influence his decisions had effected others. I took a moment to share my feelings (as I had done a few times before) how decisions we make now, can can have a profound effect in the future. Words alone will not secure our rights, sometimes to influence others takes the actions of people who are more discreet about how they carry their firearms. It has only been a week but I have yet to hear a complaint or a comment on his behavior.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this and if you think I handled this properly? I know time will tell, I would like to thin my small monetary investment in this class will somehow influence this young man when carrying, open or concealed. I am open to your comments. Thank for them and for listening to my story.

I believe, unlike most comments so far, that the school and yourself handled the situation poorly and for the wrong reasons. Here are the main points I am getting from your story:

1. AZ is constitutional carry, open or concealed.
2. A gentleman has decided to OC to protect his child.
3. Other parents are complaining about the gentleman.

Knowing those three facts, makes the rest of your story sound horrible to me.

1. The school agrees with OC and CC, yet they are going to ban someone that is OC. So what you are saying, is the school says they agree, but in reality they do not agree with it.
2. The other parents are complaining about another persons rights, and instead of informing the parents, you are enabling their fears.
3. You place blame on the person carrying the firearm in what appears to be a properly holstered firearm, and claim it's "in your face". Any firearm that is in someone's face is a problem unless that someone is about to commit a felony and harm another. A holstered firearm, is not "in your face." Did you ever try to talk with the other parents? It sounds as if you went straight for the gun owner...not once trying to talk with the other parents.
4. You have now made another firearm owner feel he should accept infringements upon his rights, while simultaneously enabling the other parents to not have to see firearms, thus creating this void of education. Now the next time gun legislation comes through that does bring an infringement, who is to blame that people aren't paying attention?
5. Like others have mentioned, it seems no one is teaching this children manners. I feel there is a bigger problem there than someone carrying openly.

Let me ask you this, can an OC not be calm, understanding, and informative? Cause I sure am calm, understanding, and informative, and I open carry. Also, now that there have been no complaints how much education have the parents received about firearms/FA laws? I am going to guess, none. That does not sound very informative to me. I believe the gentleman gave you a great opportunity to talk with a handful of anti-gun/neutral-gun citizens, and it was botched.

The only positive that I can see in this story, is that the carrier got more trigger time on the range.

I think you went above and beyond and give kudo's for what you have done, but I still see that you have more to do. Let me explain. Now that you have soothed the nerves over seeing the weapon,

See the problem here is, they didn't sooth the nerves, they just hid them. The parents are still going to complain about every gun they see, they just don't have to see it anymore. Chalk one up for the anti-gunners? Forcing carrier to abide by their rules...doesn't sound like a solution to me.

I think you handled this great. You took the problem and didnt try to force someone to act as you wanted them to. Plus he is now educated and will hopefully be more cautious of his arms. Great deal.

Actually that is exactly what they did...the problem was the parents complaining about someone else's rights. They are now forcing the OC to act the way they want him to...not the way he wants to. He is now educated on accepting infringements...not on the right to bear arms openly in AZ.

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[NavyLCDR]

I believe, unlike most comments so far, that the school and yourself handled the situation poorly and for the wrong reasons.

I believe the school handled the situation poorly as well for the wrong reason. The school can lose their license for their child care facility and go out of business. Arizona Administrative Code requires the school to ban firearms on the premises during operating hours or if enrolled children are present or on transportation provided to enrolled children if they desire to keep their state license as a child care facility.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I believe, unlike most comments so far, that the school and yourself handled the situation poorly and for the wrong reasons.

I believe the school handled the situation poorly as well for the wrong reason. The school can lose their license for their child care facility and go out of business. Arizona Administrative rules requires the school to ban firearms on the premises if they desire to keep their state license as a child care facility.

Yea, I do not know if they are a state endorsed child care, a church with a kid day care area, or what it falls under. I was posting under the assumption it is not part of the state system. If they are part of that system, then nothing I said, nor what the OP stated, matters at all.


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[LkWd_Don]

Yea, I do not know if they are a state endorsed child care, a church with a kid day care area, or what it falls under. I was posting under the assumption it is not part of the state system. If they are part of that system, then nothing I said, nor what the OP stated, matters at all.

I was just wondering the same after reading what NavyLCDR posted.

I will not retract my praise or the follow-up that I was suggesting as I still see a very great need for the Children to receive a proper education in firearms. The earlier that education begins, the safer the children will be around firearms for the rest of their lives and if they should insure that their children get a proper firearms education while young, then the result is nothing but good for all involved.

It will matter not, that this School falls under the definition of a Child-Care facility or a School, a Qualified Instructor coming in and giving a class on basic firearm safety even if using mock or orange plastic replica firearms will still benefit not only the children and the school, but the community as a whole.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Yea, I do not know if they are a state endorsed child care, a church with a kid day care area, or what it falls under. I was posting under the assumption it is not part of the state system. If they are part of that system, then nothing I said, nor what the OP stated, matters at all.

I was just wondering the same after reading what NavyLCDR posted.

I will not retract my praise or the follow-up that I was suggesting as I still see a very great need for the Children to receive a proper education in firearms. The earlier that education begins, the safer the children will be around firearms for the rest of their lives and if they should insure that their children get a proper firearms education while young, then the result is nothing but good for all involved.

It will matter not, that this School falls under the definition of a Child-Care facility or a School, a Qualified Instructor coming in and giving a class on basic firearm safety even if using mock or orange plastic replica firearms will still benefit not only the children and the school, but the community as a whole.

I was talking with an older coworker...he was telling me how he remembers firearms education and shooting bb guns in his gym class when he was younger (in a time pocket knives were allowed in school, and people would leave shotguns and rifles in their truck gun racks.) It's sad that a child just drawing a picture of a firearm can get a parent in trouble now

 

[LkWd_Don]

It's sad that a child just drawing a picture of a firearm can get a parent in trouble now

That is very Sad!
We as american 2nd Amendment supporters need to overcome a great deal of injustice that has been done in the past what 30 years?
So, to give a little bit here and there.. to ultimately get everything back that we were promised when this country was founded may take a while, but again.. it took 30 or so years to get in the mess we are now.

 

[Caribou]

I would want to review all the Arizona Statutes and Admin. Codes. In a number of States it is illegal to have a gun at school unless it is approved by the Superintendent or Principal. Some States have an exemption for parents picking up or dropping off a student. These exemptions are usually in a separate subsection. Since the firearms instructor was aware of the situation and did not comment on the illegality I would consider the possibility of an exemption. It might very well be that a parent can carry but a teacher can't, go figure.

I seem to remember an NRA gun safety course designed for young children. It would seem that your students might benefit from this course. The course is built around the idea that the kids are not to touch a gun but to notify an adult if they see one lying unattended. Since obviously some of your parents do not have guns in their homes they are unlikely to be qualified or inclined to properly instruct about firearms. This could be a valuable class when the child goes to visit a neighbors kid where the parents are gun owners.

 

[Deserteagle]

If the antis dont like the sight of the gun, take their children elsewhere! Maybe their kids should go to school in Chicago instead.

 

[LkWd_Don]

If the antis dont like the sight of the gun, take their children elsewhere! Maybe their kids should go to school in Chicago instead.

LOL :stop:
Why? to be used for target practice by criminal elements? :sarcastic:
Ok, who has the popcorn?
I'll take mine low salt extra butter..

 

[mdkoh]

I appreciate all the comments from everyone. I am a bit surprised by some of the comments although I am respectfully reviewing them.

My main purpose in talking to the OC father was because I knew him and not the other party. Would I like to talk to the other party? Absolutley, but the administrator has not made that possible plus I do not think me engaging in a conversation like that would be productive.

There are some other things in motion over this that I have not been completely briefed on so as soon as I hear back from them then I'll comment further. At this point the father has taken a firearms safety course, has qualified to apply for a conceal carry permit, and as far as I have been told has not ruffled any feathers. He still excercises his Rights under the Constitution.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I'm still curious as to whether this is a licensed child care facility or not licensed....

 

[SouthernBoy]

That is very Sad!
We as american 2nd Amendment supporters need to overcome a great deal of injustice that has been done in the past what 30 years?
So, to give a little bit here and there.. to ultimately get everything back that we were promised when this country was founded may take a while, but again.. it took 30 or so years to get in the mess we are now.

Try close to 100 years and you'd be closer to the truth. This is a deliberate and sinister plan to destroy this nation.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I appreciate all the comments from everyone. I am a bit surprised by some of the comments although I am respectfully reviewing them.

My main purpose in talking to the OC father was because I knew him and not the other party. Would I like to talk to the other party? Absolutley, but the administrator has not made that possible plus I do not think me engaging in a conversation like that would be productive.

There are some other things in motion over this that I have not been completely briefed on so as soon as I hear back from them then I'll comment further. At this point the father has taken a firearms safety course, has qualified to apply for a conceal carry permit, and as far as I have been told has not ruffled any feathers. He still excercises his Rights under the Constitution.

In my humble opinion...the only thing that was good about the situation, was the trigger time on the range. The firearms safety course, which you stated had a very dedicated portion on the responsibilities of a carrier (aka in the opinion of the instructor CC my way or you are wrong), was a bad thing overall, he has now succumb to the infringement known as a permit (so be it, almost everyone here has done that all ready). If he hasn't gotten his permit yet, how has he not ruffled any feathers? Does he illegally conceal the firearm now? :-/ So now, not only does he not get to exercise his RIGHT freely, he is illegally carrying concealed, the other parents feel warm and fuzzy for taking his RIGHTS away, and when he does get his permit, he will have the states permission and be allowed to exercise the infringement of concealed carry only with a permit....

I specifically labeled RIGHTS and infringements. There is a difference.

So...like I said...at least the trigger time was good


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[tcox4freedom]

I'm still curious as to whether this is a licensed child care facility or not licensed....

I would like to know this as well.

Was this OC father carrying illegally on school property?

Something just doesn't seem right about this story.