Should You Act? - Get Involved Or Get Away?

[Kasper]

Time & $$$$$

Am I willing to lose everything that I own? and How long is this going to take?

Those are the 2 things that unfortunately one has to base their decision on if they are going to help someone. By doing the correct thing helping the person you could be opening a can of worms.

As some know police respond to calls from the dispatcher they don't know much till they arrive at the seen. The dispatcher tells them a man with a gun is attacking someone. You are now the man with a gun that is attacking. when the police get there they see you and some else standing next to a person that has been shot. I can't say for sure how they will act but I don't think you are going to like it.

After some time has passed they realize that you were not the attacker but a person that came to the aid of the person being attacked. But the amount of time it takes for them to realize this is gone and the cost of proving your innocence is left for you to pay.

After attending a General Defensive Handgun class taught by InSights Training Center
I was told to be prepared for the trouble you will get yourself involved in by trying to do the right thing.

With that said I can see why most are not willing to use their CCW to help a stranger. I know I would call 911 to report the crime and use my phone to record the criminal committing the crime but to get involved I need to be willing to lose my life,job and bank account for someone I don't know. To be honest I don't think I would get involved knowing all that I have to lose. It's not much but I like it. The down side is having to go on wondering "what if I stopped to help"

 

[Super T]

Each situation on it's own merits . Be aware , protecting loved ones is only priority ! Great reads !!!!

 

[SC Tiger]

All of my weapons say Sig Sauer Ruger or Smith and Wesson, not one says superman.

That's signature material right there. Mind if I use it?

 

[RRGlock23]

SO WHAT? GET INVOLVED OR GET SOMETHING TO DO WITH YOUR GUN UPON TO THEM, ha ha I'm joking

Good Posted !!! :biggrin:

 

[HK4U]

Hey HK4U and gunsite: Last replies on when or if to get involved in someone else's business, particularly if you are CC was "right on". Here in SC we have the "alter ego" rule that allows you to "interfere" as if the acts of violence are being perpetrated on you and you believe them to be an imminent threat to your safety and well-being. Sounds really good on paper, as written by our legislators, but when it is not you, you have no idea what is going on in these other people's situation and, as your replies indicated, jumping in with your CCW can be devastatingly wrong. On the other hand, I find the attitude expressed by some forum members that if it is not them or their family, they will do nothing, to be a bit disturbing. There is a grey area in the middle of all this and anyone with an ounce of responsibility and intelligence will know "when" and know "how". It is like the remark out of the Supreme Court on pornography---"when you see it you will know if it is pornography". When you see an assault that is heading toward fatality or great bodily injury you will know what to do (even if it just a 911 call).Just sayin--lets hope we all are not the victim and we all never have to make these kind of decisions.

I agree. Every situation is differant and therefore no pat answers. I will just have to take it as it comes and go from there.

 

[jg1967]

Hm, that sort of "think before you act" was exactly what my CCW instructor also went to great lengths to emphasize.

 

[TheAmericanGreed]

Knowledge equals power

my instructer told me a story to see how I would react.
Woman is walking in a public park minding her business. A van pulls up close enough to her and a man jumps out and grabs her bringing her back to the van. Now to paint a more vivid picture man not wearing a mask Woman is kicking and screaming she doesnt want to go back and the man looks pissed of like he could kill someone. What do you do?

I know some are wondering well what kind of van, but can you really stereo type a van. Windows or no windows. I have freinds who are in a band that have a windowless van.

 

[TheAmericanGreed]

Hey jsdinTexas: You are absolutely right in your comment/reply. It amazes me when I put the brakes on "what ifs" in some of my replies when I use a cautionary approach to deadly defense, particularly when it involves someone breaking into my home. In my case my wife and I are the only people in the house (it is wholly different if someone has children or others living in other areas of the home), I lock and secure my bedroom and will do everything sensible (activate car alarm, call 911 etc), but WILL NOT leave my bedroom as someone is rummaging thru my "stuff"---stuff is insured and stuff is not imminent danger of loss of life or great bodily injury. The perp or perps may be better armed and better shots than me and I do not intend to lose my life over stuff, but the responses from some of our fellow forum members (and I do understand where they are coming from--"hard work for me to get my stuff and I ain't letting anyone take it") is confront and shoot. In SC, a home breakin is sufficient cause for me to do whatever I want in my home, including confront and shoot-no questions asked, on the presumption that it is a reasonable assumption of death or great bodily injury but in my book, it is not worth the possible loss of my life because someone, who may be bigger and badder and more armd than me, is taking stuff. My hope is that the LEOs arrive in appropriate time, that the stuff will be recovered at a pawn shop (many times that is what happens) ,and the stuff is replaceable with insurance money, but my life is not recoverable. Iif they force their way into my bedroom,however, all bets are off and I am very well prepared with the arms and the strategy to deal with them in a very convincing manner.

I agree with this as well. material things arent worth a mans life or yours for that matter. If someone was messing with my bike or vehicle i wouldnt shot to stop him ill confront him after a 911 call and if possible give him no options out. But I couldnt see myself shooting someone trying to take my stuff which can be replaced. now if he threateneds me by any means that I fear for my life, then its his lost.

 

[PlusOne]

I realize this is all hypothetical.

But what is being described could (especially in today's culture) just be a couple's domestic dispute drama, one that this couple has played out many times before. Fight, slap around, scream, cuss and make up. Booze, drugs, craziness, cheating, you can't know what's happening.

You don't want to get sucked into that kind of crazy drama. With or without a firearm.

Have 911 on speed dial. Get a license plate. Your phone probably has a camera, film could be helpful if he needs to be arrested once police arrive. My two cents.

 

[santa]

Not sure if this is the best place for this but here goes. There was a thread sometime back on if we should get involved. I got this news letter from Gabe Suarez today. With his years of experience not only in law enforcement but also firearms instructor I thought his insights woud be good. Hope he does not mind me sharing his wisdom.


Should You Act? - Get Involved Or Get Away?

Notice_no_guns_or_weapons Every so often we get a thread at Warrior Talk asking about what a CCW person should do if he sees a crime, or some apparent victimization. The implied question of course is the quest for justification of the desire to jump in with both feet to save the day. That inherent desire, while noble, may also be quite foolish and self-destructive.



I am not saying to default to doing nothing, merely that you should think it through before taking action that could adversely affect you for the rest of your life. Your decision will be based on three factors – location, companions, and information. Let’s discuss it.



Location. I have traveled in places that I refer to as Non-Permissive Environments. Those are areas where the legality of being armed may be questionable, yet where it is so dangerous that going unarmed would be stupid. In such places getting involved in anyone else’s problem is a bad decision no matter the situation.

In some places saving the day will get you a medal of valor, while in others, even if you saved everyone, the political environment would still cause you to be arrested and likely prosecuted. If you are in an environment like the latter, I suggest not getting involved in anything that does not directly endanger you or yours.

Look at it this way, will you trade your freedom, and finances to save strangers? That is what it boils down to. It is easy to be indignant at my suggestion from the safety of the internet in your living room, it is also quite easy to disagree when you carry the “Badge of America” card as an LEO with the full umbrella of protection your agency provides, but it is another matter altogether when you are sitting in the defendant’s chair, a civilian paying your own way, looking at a prison sentence because you decided to “do the right thing”.

Sceneofcrime If you don't have a gun its a moot point. If its legal for you to carry its also a moot point.

In a free area where you are legal to carry your pistol, again the choice is clear. Good guys can intervene in times of danger and victimization secure that if they act properly, they will probably be fine afterward. That is the reality of why places where gun laws are lax are far safer than places where gun laws are strict…because good guys are not afraid to be good guys.



Companions will also have an effect on your decisions. I spoke to an LA County Deputy once whose daughter was shot and killed by two armed robbers when he elected to intervene at the store they were robbing. Listen people…if you have your family with you, everyone else is on their own. Unless the bad guys have targeted you and them specifically, go on your way. Whatever is happening is none of your business. Certainly, call 911, but leave and keep them safe. Sorry to sound “cowardly” but anyone who says they will risk their family to save someone else’s money is a fool.



Whether you act or not also depends on how much information you have about what is going on. The information present and available to you may over ride the presence in an NPE, but rarely. The less Intel I have, the less likely I am to do anything but leave. The more Intel I have the better decision I can make. What you see may not give the total picture.

Active shooter problems are easy. When you see a man with an assault rifle shooting into the Toys R Us, you can venture a guess that that is the bad guy and that he is the one that needs to be shot. But those are not the ones that cause us problem are they.

Two guys fighting? None of my business.

Two guys beating up a third guy? Do you act now? Honestly, for me it depends on what they look like. If they are two gang-type thugs beating up an old man, the choice is pretty clear. I would have to intervene. But if two gang-type thugs are beating up a third gang-type thug, its none of my business. I may make a 911 call, but I don’t plan to stick around. Is the fight you see two cops beating up a gang-thug? Cool, but still nothing to do with you. How about two homeys beating up a cop? Now we are back to helping out the good guys. All different stories, eliciting different responses aren't they. Here are a few more.

One guy slapping a girl? None of my business. “Hey wait a minute!”, I can hear the chivalrous crowd yelling from across the nation. Chivalry demands the presence of a lady. Is the apparent victim a lady? Are you willing to risk your life for her? Think with your brain and not your sword. Just on the face of the description I do not have enough to get involved, sorry. Make the guy a gang-thug and the girl a typical soccer mom? Things just changed because of the Intel. Make the guy a gang-thug and the girl a meth-mouth whore? Sorry…not my fight. My Glock will stay in the holster and my phone will be used for 911 instead.

Picture at range 011110 041 Its 2010 and your CCW stands for Cary (of) Concealed Weapons, not for Captain America. The only time I will get involved in someone else's fight is when I have enough info on what I am seeing to determine who is who and what is happening, I am alone or with other combatants, and then only if not doing something would shock my personal conscience.

In my opinion this post was very well written and thought out. I have always believed in any situation your most important asset is your brain and we should always think what we would do. While what kind of gun we carry is importanr it is secondary to using good judgement. Good post HK.

 

[karle]

In Texas the CHL laws state deadly force is only defendable if the BG is stealing something that you "reasonably believe" can not be replaced (insurance does replace). So we can't use DF just cause the BG is running off with the TV

sure u can.....ur TV has "sentimental value" that replacement can NEVER cover :biggrin:

 

[JSDinTexas]

sure u can.....ur TV has "sentimental value" that replacement can NEVER cover :biggrin:

Hmm, let me mull that one over - I have been known to fondle a gun or two, but my relationship with my TV is strictly platonic :biggrin:

 

[joemendoza]

You don't know their intentions. You don't have superhuman powers to read minds. You don't know if they just want to steal stuff or if they want to kill and rape (in that order) your family. .

Yes, exactly. That's why it might be good to shoot. It is not your problem that they have put you in a position of having to guess their mind.

That said, I would only shoot if I felt they were about to harm me.

 

[tuts40]

Funny, guys chimed in to give councel to the thread's original question even after rather extensive words on the subject from GABE SAUREZ were provided. ...Amazing.

 

[JayRoe]

I've thought about these types of scenarios, and what the ramifications could be if I got involved. I think in the majority of cases it would be a lose/lose, even IF you came out on top against "the enemy". I don't think I would get involved in anything short of someone popping off rounds in a public place, shooting people at random. Even in that case, if there was an off-duty LEO in the crowd (or for that matter another CCW guy/gal), if you pull out your piece you might be mistaken for another bad guy (accomplice) and get shot by the good guy. Yikes!

 

[dojoman]

Knowing all the facts is key for me too. Despite the "Profiling" some resort to, that means nothing to me. Just because two thugs are beating up a LEO does not necessarly mean the Leo is a victim. What if he has been a crooked cop and finally gets what's been coming to him? Yeah I don't assume every cop is evil, but I sure know they all are not on the side of good.
Aside from that, in NY I couldn't just go into a situation and expect that no legal issues will come of it. Even if its a Felony Level Situation (robbery, rap, murder, arson, or kidnaping) I better make 100% sure I'm understanding it clear. B.c what happens if I defend the perso

 

[dojoman]

Sorry hit the submit early.

What happens if I defend that person and they say..."oh I don't want to press charges on my attacker" now I'm screwed

 

[dwmckenney]

Good read thanks