Should You Act? - Get Involved Or Get Away?

Hey jsdinTexas: Absolutely agree with everything you said in last post-no apology is necessary. If anything, I hope my comments were not misunderstood that made you reply the way you did in your last post. AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, IMMINENT DEATH OR GREAT BODILY INJURY IS THE ONLY REASON TO BE USING YOUR FIREARM--PERIOD, END OF STORY. As I said in previous posts, I sense that there are quite a few out there who are willing to use their firearm for a lot less than what I just said in capital letters. As I said, in SC the Castle Doctrine DOES ALLOW FOR THE USE OF YOUR FIREARM IF THE SLIME HAS FORCIBLY ENTERED YOUR HOME--HE COULD BE LOOKING TO REFRESH HIMSELF WITH A BOTTLE OF COKE FROM YOUR FRIDGE BUT HE ENTERED FORCIBLY AND YOU CAN USE YOUR FIREARM. Your story to the authorities better be checked over by an attorney or your only comment should be :" I was scared to death and really thought I and my family were going to be killed by this individual". In my case, I am in my locked bedroom and all the stuff outside of my bedroom is his without my coming out guns blazing--he is stealing but he is not threatening my life- I'll let the LEOs and my insurance worry about it, although Castle Doctrine allows me more lethal alternatives. Many out there have a very different "take" on this but that's my opinion. IF HE FORCES THE DOOR TO MY BEDROOM, THOUGH, HE WILL BE VERY SORRY FOR THE LAST TIME.
 
kelcarry said:
Hey jsdinTexas: Absolutely agree with everything you said in last post-no apology is necessary. If anything, I hope my comments were not misunderstood that made you reply the way you did in your last post. AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, IMMINENT DEATH OR GREAT BODILY INJURY IS THE ONLY REASON TO BE USING YOUR FIREARM--PERIOD, END OF STORY. As I said in previous posts, I sense that there are quite a few out there who are willing to use their firearm for a lot less than what I just said in capital letters. As I said, in SC the Castle Doctrine DOES ALLOW FOR THE USE OF YOUR FIREARM IF THE SLIME HAS FORCIBLY ENTERED YOUR HOME--HE COULD BE LOOKING TO REFRESH HIMSELF WITH A BOTTLE OF COKE FROM YOUR FRIDGE BUT HE ENTERED FORCIBLY AND YOU CAN USE YOUR FIREARM. Your story to the authorities better be checked over by an attorney or your only comment should be :" I was scared to death and really thought I and my family were going to be killed by this individual". In my case, I am in my locked bedroom and all the stuff outside of my bedroom is his without my coming out guns blazing--he is stealing but he is not threatening my life- I'll let the LEOs and my insurance worry about it, although Castle Doctrine allows me more lethal alternatives. Many out there have a very different "take" on this but that's my opinion. IF HE FORCES THE DOOR TO MY BEDROOM, THOUGH, HE WILL BE VERY SORRY FOR THE LAST TIME.
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I agree with most of what you said except if someone unlawfully enters my house, if I have my way he will never get to my bed room door. Material possessions is of course secondary to the safety of family or myself but that does not mean I will not shoot to prevent the BG from taking what I have worked to own. Besides I would feel bad if I did not shoot to stop someone that had entered my house and found out that later on he killed his next victim. I do not look at it as taking the intruders life I view it as him voluntarily surrendering his own. After all if he is going to dance he better be willing to pay the piper.
 
+1 on the last couple of posts - and just to further clarify, I live in the country and the LEO is 20 minutes away, so there is no hesitation in my house.
 
kelcarry said:
In my case, I am in my locked bedroom and all the stuff outside of my bedroom is his without my coming out guns blazing--he is stealing but he is not threatening my life- I'll let the LEOs and my insurance worry about it, although Castle Doctrine allows me more lethal alternatives..
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Seriously, dude. You're going to be thinking differently if and when somebody ever breaks into your house. You don't know their intentions. You don't have superhuman powers to read minds. You don't know if they just want to steal stuff or if they want to kill and rape (in that order) your family. The law has made it clear that you can assume a threat to your life when someone breaks into your dwelling. It's better not to take any chances. The criminal took the chance when he entered your home, but you're smarter than that. "Stupid men gamble; smart men invest" (like in a gun in this case).
 
Hey Midnight: You say in your last post that "stupid men gamble and smart men invest (in guns)". Dirty Harry once said that "man should know his limitations". I know my limitations and over "stuff" I am not about to "gamble" and find out what they truly are or whether the slime on the other side of my bedroom door has less or more limitations than me. It will be crystal clear to me if someone goes thru the trouble of defeating my locked bedroom door that true Castle Doctrine, IMO, is in force and I will have no "limitations" as to what I will do using my "investments" to their fullest under my controlled environment (where I am, where I am aiming, etc, etc.
 
kelcarry said:
Hey Midnight: You say in your last post that "stupid men gamble and smart men invest (in guns)". Dirty Harry once said that "man should know his limitations". I know my limitations and over "stuff" I am not about to "gamble" and find out what they truly are or whether the slime on the other side of my bedroom door has less or more limitations than me. It will be crystal clear to me if someone goes thru the trouble of defeating my locked bedroom door that true Castle Doctrine, IMO, is in force and I will have no "limitations" as to what I will do using my "investments" to their fullest under my controlled environment (where I am, where I am aiming, etc, etc.
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I'm all about having a plan. Any sain person should, however, more times than not, nothing goes as planned. How do you know you will be locked in your bedroom when someone enters and more importantly, how do you know the only thing the BG wants is your 'stuff'? I think it's safe to say that if someone breaks into your house at night, they know you are there. That in itself is dangerous enough. I will at this point agree to disagree with your only plan. It's your choice to chance your life to an intruder in your house. I suppose your plan could work for you if you are single. I'm going to venture to say it's not a great plan for those of us with families and more than one person living in the house.
 
That is pretty close to what was taught in class.
DEFENSE FOR MYSELF AND MY FAMILY AGAINST DEADLY FORCE !
"Remember, if you do have to shoot. _ "No matter what happens someone is going to TRY to sue you."

Thanks for the info. I know many non CCW people that think we are out to save the world.
No CASTLE law in my state.That sucks.

Good read.
 
I carry for my own protection, not someone else's. If I feel that my life is in danger, I think I would react, but any other time I doubt I would.
 
Hey lifeguard: Per your comments I absolutely agree with you when you raise the issue of children or other people in other parts of the house. It is just my wife and I and that kind of falls into the "single" category--under those circumstances you are obligated to defend them. As far as other comments you made--there are always the 'what ifs" that can clearly be defended as actions you should or should not take--I could even be outside my house watering the lawn and a band of slime come up to me and yada yada yada. I do not CC 24/7 and, being 68, have NEVER been in a situation that even remotely required any sort of defense of any kind. I purchased a firearm, I am CC qualified, and I choose to pick my fights as night situations either in my house or out and about. Quite frankly, I purchased my firearm(s) after coming to the conclusion that the piece of garbage in the whitehouse is a dictator wannabe and everything he does points to the dismantling of America and moving it to Germany 1930--I am Jewish and I WILL NOT BE A SHEEP like my fellow Jews were in Germany as they professed their German citizenship and were in total denial of what was going on. Once I owned my firearms I carefully thought about their use and "picked" the fights that I felt were within my "limitations". 24/7 "what ifs" are always there but I made my decisions and they are clearly not 24/7, but night-driven "what ifs". Just sayin.
 
HK4U said:
Not sure if this is the best place for this but here goes. There was a thread sometime back on if we should get involved. I got this news letter from Gabe Suarez today. With his years of experience not only in law enforcement but also firearms instructor I thought his insights woud be good. Hope he does not mind me sharing his wisdom.


Should You Act? - Get Involved Or Get Away?

Notice_no_guns_or_weapons Every so often we get a thread at Warrior Talk asking about what a CCW person should do if he sees a crime, or some apparent victimization. The implied question of course is the quest for justification of the desire to jump in with both feet to save the day. That inherent desire, while noble, may also be quite foolish and self-destructive.



I am not saying to default to doing nothing, merely that you should think it through before taking action that could adversely affect you for the rest of your life. Your decision will be based on three factors – location, companions, and information. Let’s discuss it.



Location. I have traveled in places that I refer to as Non-Permissive Environments. Those are areas where the legality of being armed may be questionable, yet where it is so dangerous that going unarmed would be stupid. In such places getting involved in anyone else’s problem is a bad decision no matter the situation.

In some places saving the day will get you a medal of valor, while in others, even if you saved everyone, the political environment would still cause you to be arrested and likely prosecuted. If you are in an environment like the latter, I suggest not getting involved in anything that does not directly endanger you or yours.

Look at it this way, will you trade your freedom, and finances to save strangers? That is what it boils down to. It is easy to be indignant at my suggestion from the safety of the internet in your living room, it is also quite easy to disagree when you carry the “Badge of America” card as an LEO with the full umbrella of protection your agency provides, but it is another matter altogether when you are sitting in the defendant’s chair, a civilian paying your own way, looking at a prison sentence because you decided to “do the right thing”.

Sceneofcrime If you don't have a gun its a moot point. If its legal for you to carry its also a moot point.

In a free area where you are legal to carry your pistol, again the choice is clear. Good guys can intervene in times of danger and victimization secure that if they act properly, they will probably be fine afterward. That is the reality of why places where gun laws are lax are far safer than places where gun laws are strict…because good guys are not afraid to be good guys.



Companions will also have an effect on your decisions. I spoke to an LA County Deputy once whose daughter was shot and killed by two armed robbers when he elected to intervene at the store they were robbing. Listen people…if you have your family with you, everyone else is on their own. Unless the bad guys have targeted you and them specifically, go on your way. Whatever is happening is none of your business. Certainly, call 911, but leave and keep them safe. Sorry to sound “cowardly” but anyone who says they will risk their family to save someone else’s money is a fool.



Whether you act or not also depends on how much information you have about what is going on. The information present and available to you may over ride the presence in an NPE, but rarely. The less Intel I have, the less likely I am to do anything but leave. The more Intel I have the better decision I can make. What you see may not give the total picture.

Active shooter problems are easy. When you see a man with an assault rifle shooting into the Toys R Us, you can venture a guess that that is the bad guy and that he is the one that needs to be shot. But those are not the ones that cause us problem are they.

Two guys fighting? None of my business.

Two guys beating up a third guy? Do you act now? Honestly, for me it depends on what they look like. If they are two gang-type thugs beating up an old man, the choice is pretty clear. I would have to intervene. But if two gang-type thugs are beating up a third gang-type thug, its none of my business. I may make a 911 call, but I don’t plan to stick around. Is the fight you see two cops beating up a gang-thug? Cool, but still nothing to do with you. How about two homeys beating up a cop? Now we are back to helping out the good guys. All different stories, eliciting different responses aren't they. Here are a few more.

One guy slapping a girl? None of my business. “Hey wait a minute!”, I can hear the chivalrous crowd yelling from across the nation. Chivalry demands the presence of a lady. Is the apparent victim a lady? Are you willing to risk your life for her? Think with your brain and not your sword. Just on the face of the description I do not have enough to get involved, sorry. Make the guy a gang-thug and the girl a typical soccer mom? Things just changed because of the Intel. Make the guy a gang-thug and the girl a meth-mouth whore? Sorry…not my fight. My Glock will stay in the holster and my phone will be used for 911 instead.

Picture at range 011110 041 Its 2010 and your CCW stands for Cary (of) Concealed Weapons, not for Captain America. The only time I will get involved in someone else's fight is when I have enough info on what I am seeing to determine who is who and what is happening, I am alone or with other combatants, and then only if not doing something would shock my personal conscience.
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Most public scenarios are never clear and cut On whether you should act or not, you can save a life/injury or get injured or dead yourself. Sometimes simple assaults/confirmations can become deadly just by you (CCW person) intervening causing the situation to escalate, then you have to ask yourself ARE YOU READY FOR THAT. Today with cell phones being almost a body part, calling 911 should be the first course of action.

When you pull your weapon out of the holster, its like being in a card game and saying...ALL IN... your house, your kids, wife, car, dog, and savings.
 
kelcarry said:
Hey lifeguard: Per your comments I absolutely agree with you when you raise the issue of children or other people in other parts of the house. It is just my wife and I and that kind of falls into the "single" category--under those circumstances you are obligated to defend them. As far as other comments you made--there are always the 'what ifs" that can clearly be defended as actions you should or should not take--I could even be outside my house watering the lawn and a band of slime come up to me and yada yada yada. I do not CC 24/7 and, being 68, have NEVER been in a situation that even remotely required any sort of defense of any kind. I purchased a firearm, I am CC qualified, and I choose to pick my fights as night situations either in my house or out and about. Quite frankly, I purchased my firearm(s) after coming to the conclusion that the piece of garbage in the whitehouse is a dictator wannabe and everything he does points to the dismantling of America and moving it to Germany 1930--I am Jewish and I WILL NOT BE A SHEEP like my fellow Jews were in Germany as they professed their German citizenship and were in total denial of what was going on. Once I owned my firearms I carefully thought about their use and "picked" the fights that I felt were within my "limitations". 24/7 "what ifs" are always there but I made my decisions and they are clearly not 24/7, but night-driven "what ifs". Just sayin.
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I hope I didn't come across rude this time, I wasn't trying to be. Knowing your limitations puts you way ahead of most people and I applaud you for that. I think I play out scenarios in my head. My job got me into that, so I think of primary responses, alternate, contingencies, ect.
 
Hey lifeguard: Pleasure exchanging replies with you. As I said before, I absolutely agree with your reply to me so no apology is necessary. I very rarely CC---in SC you cannot CC in a restaurant that sells alcohol drinks and you cannot CC in a house of worship w/o approval---if there are two scenarios that I truly would want to CC it is the night walk back to the parked car after a dinner at a restaurant or the night walk back to the parked car after attending a mens club dinner at the synagogue. Took the CC course more because I could and I did learn a lot from an experienced instructor who is an active deputy sheriff in SC. IMO, situational awareness daytime or nighttime is more important than being CC. Always the what if but if you can avoid a problem you do not need CC--works for me over the 68 years of my life---most lived in NY/NJ--not exactly the most peaceful area of the country. Peace brother lifeguard and hope we never have a reason.
 
It also comes down to knowing what the law is in the state where you reside. Some states have a requirement for you to attempt to retreat. There are other states that have castle doctrine/stand your ground laws. I happen to live in a Castle doctrine/ stand your ground state. There is also an assumption of risk statute where I live. That last part is VERY important. What it means is that the person engaged in the criminal activity assumes the risk of being killed for their actions. If you do defend someone else and the DA rules that you were justified in doing so you CANNOT be sued by the family of the dead perpetrator. All that being said you still have a very tough decision to make, do you help or not. In the end we all would have to live with ourselves and the consequences of the decision that we made.
 
Hey HK4U and gunsite: Last replies on when or if to get involved in someone else's business, particularly if you are CC was "right on". Here in SC we have the "alter ego" rule that allows you to "interfere" as if the acts of violence are being perpetrated on you and you believe them to be an imminent threat to your safety and well-being. Sounds really good on paper, as written by our legislators, but when it is not you, you have no idea what is going on in these other people's situation and, as your replies indicated, jumping in with your CCW can be devastatingly wrong. On the other hand, I find the attitude expressed by some forum members that if it is not them or their family, they will do nothing, to be a bit disturbing. There is a grey area in the middle of all this and anyone with an ounce of responsibility and intelligence will know "when" and know "how". It is like the remark out of the Supreme Court on pornography---"when you see it you will know if it is pornography". When you see an assault that is heading toward fatality or great bodily injury you will know what to do (even if it just a 911 call).Just sayin--lets hope we all are not the victim and we all never have to make these kind of decisions.
 
kelcarry said:
Hey lifeguard: Pleasure exchanging replies with you. As I said before, I absolutely agree with your reply to me so no apology is necessary. I very rarely CC---in SC you cannot CC in a restaurant that sells alcohol drinks and you cannot CC in a house of worship w/o approval---if there are two scenarios that I truly would want to CC it is the night walk back to the parked car after a dinner at a restaurant or the night walk back to the parked car after attending a mens club dinner at the synagogue. Took the CC course more because I could and I did learn a lot from an experienced instructor who is an active deputy sheriff in SC. IMO, situational awareness daytime or nighttime is more important than being CC. Always the what if but if you can avoid a problem you do not need CC--works for me over the 68 years of my life---most lived in NY/NJ--not exactly the most peaceful area of the country. Peace brother lifeguard and hope we never have a reason.
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Florida's CC laws are basically the same when we talk about where you can and can't carry. I do like your wisdom/theory behind when you carry. Have you ever read "The Art Of War"? Your statement about avoiding a problem reminded me of something I read from that book, "the great general is one who finds a way to win without fighting a single battle." Nothing wrong with that!
 
I agree, protecting family comes first. I don't really care where I'm at, if someone endangers my daughters there's going to be a fight. I'll deal with the consequences later. If my family is in no immediate danger I would get them to a safe location. If I'm alone then it would depend on the situation. Is it likely someone will be killed or seriously injured? Is it a robbery where it looks like no one is going to get hurt? If I intervene will it help or worsen the situation? These are all things that need to be considered before involvement.
 
I helped a "lady" one night because her husband was slapping her around.After I pulled her off my back I told him to take her home and get out of my club.
 
While I agree that one should use wisdom and caution when approaching a situation that may not involve them. Those who said they wouldn't try anything should feel ashamed. At least, that is my personal opinion. In Alabama we have the castle doctrine, and it is legal to defend someone else if the situation warrents it. It is really all a judgement call, and using common sense. Lots of "what ifs" out there, but I think that people should be willing to step in more than less. I am not saying pull your pistol on every rude smuck out there, we would be having fire fights all the time if that were the case:biggrin:. But if one sees a situation where one is being victimized, they should at least step in verbally. Then if threatened themself, act in accordance with the laws of God and of man.

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act."
—Dietrich Bonhoeffer
 
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