Shooting at mall


KimberPB

New member
Link Removed
===============================================

The horrible tragedy at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Neb. received a lot of attention Wednesday and Thursday. It should have. Eight people were killed, and five were wounded.

A Google news search using the phrase "Omaha Mall Shooting" finds an incredible 2,794 news stories worldwide for the last day. From India and Taiwan to Britain and Austria, there are probably few people in the world who haven’t heard about this tragedy.

But despite the massive news coverage, none of the media coverage, at least by 10 a.m. Thursday, mentioned this central fact: Yet another attack occurred in a gun-free zone.

Surely, with all the reporters who appear at these crime scenes and seemingly interview virtually everyone there, why didn’t one simply mention the signs that ban guns from the premises?

Nebraska allows people to carry permitted concealed handguns, but it allows property owners, such as the Westroads Mall, to post signs banning permit holders from legally carrying guns on their property.

The same was true for the attack at the Trolley Square Mall in Utah in February (a copy of the sign at the mall can be seen here). But again the media coverage ignored this fact. Possibly the ban there was even more noteworthy because the off-duty police officer who stopped the attack fortunately violated the ban by taking his gun in with him when he went shopping.

Yet even then, the officer "was at the opposite end and on a different floor of the convoluted Trolley Square complex when the shooting began. By the time he became aware of the shooting and managed to track down and confront Talovic [the killer], three minutes had elapsed."

There are plenty of cases every year where permit holders stop what would have been multiple victim shootings every year, but they rarely receive any news coverage. Take a case this year in Memphis, where WBIR-TV reported a gunman started "firing a pistol beside a busy city street" and was stopped by two permit holders before anyone was harmed.

When will part of the media coverage on these multiple-victim public shootings be whether guns were banned where the attack occurred? While the media has begun to cover whether teachers can have guns at school or the almost 8,000 college students across the country who protested gun-free zones on their campuses, the media haven’t started checking what are the rules where these attacks occur.

Surely, the news stories carry detailed information on the weapon used (in this case, a rifle) and the number of ammunition clips (apparently, two). But if these aspects of the story are deemed important for understanding what happened, why isn’t it also important that the attack occurred where guns were banned? Isn’t it important to know why all the victims were disarmed?

Few know that Dylan Klebold, one of the two Columbine killers, closely was following Colorado legislation that would have allowed citizens to carry a concealed handgun. Klebold strongly opposed the legislation and openly talked about it.

No wonder, as the bill being debated would have allowed permitted guns to be carried on school property. It is quite a coincidence that he attacked the Columbine High School the very day the legislature was scheduled to vote on the bill.

Despite the lack of news coverage, people are beginning to notice what research has shown for years: Multiple-victim public shootings keep occurring in places where guns already are banned. Forty states have broad right-to-carry laws, but even within these states it is the "gun-free zones," not other public places, where the attacks happen.

People know the list: Virginia Tech saw 32 murdered earlier this year; the Columbine High School shooting left 13 murdered in 1999; Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, had 23 who were fatally shot by a deranged man in 1991; and a McDonald's in Southern California had 21 people shot dead by an unemployed security guard in 1984.

All these attacks — indeed, all attacks involving more than a small number of people being killed — happened in gun-free zones.

In recent years, similar attacks have occurred across the world, including in Australia, France, Germany and Britain. Do all these countries lack enough gun-control laws? Hardly. The reverse is more accurate.

The law-abiding, not criminals, are obeying the rules. Disarming the victims simply means that the killers have less to fear. As Wednesday's attack demonstrated yet again, police are important, but they almost always arrive at the crime scene after the crime has occurred.

The longer it takes for someone to arrive on the scene with a gun, the more people who will be harmed by such an attack.

Most people understand that guns deter criminals. If a killer were stalking your family, would you feel safer putting a sign out front announcing, "This Home Is a Gun-Free Zone"? But that is what the Westroads Mall did.

+1 Very good read!
 

KimberPB

New member
Here is what the FBI think about mall security:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mall.security/index.html

This comment says it all!
"Should these private security guards be armed? "Absolutely not," said Greene. Greene said if a security officer were to pull a gun on an armed individual in a mall, it could result in "the gunfight at the 'OK corral,' and then we might have 23 people killed instead of eight."

Are you kidding me??
 

HK4U

New member
Shooting

Unfortunately you will probably never see the news report that the mall is a "gun free zone" ,and the anti gun people will have a field day with this of course leaving out relavent facts to the story.It is too bad that there wasn`t anyone there that could have possibly stopped this person before he killed so many,but this is the time of the year when the nut jobs come out of the woodwork and unfortunately don`t discriminate who they take with them on their death wish.As was stated a bunch of times before.This is one of the reasons i carry all the time because you just never know and there is no safe place.Prayers go out to the familys.


Most media will not report the facts but at least Fox did.
 

HK4U

New member
Subject: More Blood on Hands of 'Gun Free Zones' Extremists at Omaha Mall, Says CCRKBA
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:39:56 -0800


NEWS RELEASE
MORE BLOOD ON HANDS OF 'GUN FREE ZONES' EXTREMISTS AT OMAHA MALL, SAYS CCRKBA
BELLEVUE, WA – Eight more innocent Americans have been sacrificed on the altar of political correctness at Omaha’s Westroads Mall this week, and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms said today that the real outrage of this crime is that it happened in a “gun free zone” where law-abiding private citizens are disarmed by mall rules and state statute.

“In the wake of this horrible crime,” said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb, “gun control extremists are already demanding more useless gun control legislation. A prohibition on firearms at Westroads Mall did not stop Robert Hawkins, but it did give him a risk-free environment in which to unleash his rampage.”

Gottlieb, co-author of the recently released America Fights Back: Armed Self-defense In A Violent Age, said the common link between virtually every mass shooting in recent history in this country is that they all happened in so-called “gun-free zones” such as shopping malls and college campuses. He and co-author Dave Workman detail the colossal failure of this “Gun Free Folly” in their new book.

“What happened at the Westroads Mall can happen anywhere that political hysteria results in victim disarmament,” Gottlieb stated. “Blaming firearms for this crime is like blaming cars for drunk driving. The argument doesn’t wash. Published reports all suggest that Hawkins was troubled and had emotional problems, and he reportedly had a felony drug conviction on his record which prohibited him from owning firearms. This proves that restrictive gun laws do not prevent determined perpetrators from getting their hands on guns, but they do prevent law-abiding citizens from having the tools to defend themselves.

“Remember that a similar shooting at Salt Lake City’s Trolley Square earlier this year was interrupted by an armed, off-duty police officer from another city,” Gottlieb said. “In essence, that man was an armed private citizen. In Tacoma, Washington two years ago, an armed citizen confronted a gunman at the Tacoma Mall and although he was seriously wounded, his intervention brought the shooting to a halt.

“Gun owners, the gun industry, nor our constitutionally-protected individual right to keep and bear arms are at fault for the Westroads outrage,” he said, “and the gun control lobby knows it. Restrictive laws that disarm honest citizens and provide risk-free environments for criminals and lunatics are at fault, and so are the people responsible for passing such laws and enforcing such prohibitions.

-END
 

eluno

New member
question....

The mall shooting.
If there was someone in the mall who chose to disregaurd the "no guns allowed" sign and was able to stop the shooter, when he is taken before a court, do you think the state issue permit would trump the mall hung sign?
If it was really contested, do you think he would win? The current political climate says "no" to me, but put that aside for sake of this discussion.
What do you think?
 

gordo

New member
I would guess the verdict would be not guilty or at least a hung jury. They would have to move the trial to the west end of the state to get a jury that didn't know someone in the mall when it happened or already have their mind made up. The people in the sparsely populated and policed west end of the state would be more favorably toward carrying.
 

ecocks

New member
Additional information

More information is coming out regarding the tactical situation and the background of the shooter. Stay informed if you are going to try and discuss it on an open forum.

The first link presents a more coherent picture of the event; Note he was not shooting down on people from the balcony, but appears to have been inside the large department store on the third floor of the mall. Most of the fatalities were employees of the store.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mall.shooting.911/index.html

Mental instability background of the shooter.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/omaha.shooting/index.html
 

JC40

New member
One of the local radio stations has ben playing the 911 calls from the mall where the shooting happened.They are pretty chilling to listen too.You can actually hear the gunshots from the shooter as the people talk to the 911 dispatcher.
 

Tarzan1888

New member
Here is what the FBI think about mall security:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mall.security/index.html

This comment says it all!
"Should these private security guards be armed? "Absolutely not," said Greene. Greene said if a security officer were to pull a gun on an armed individual in a mall, it could result in "the gunfight at the 'OK corral,' and then we might have 23 people killed instead of eight."

Are you kidding me??

The sheep see the gun as the problem. 1 gun = problem

2 guns = really big problem.


There are none so blind as he who WILL not see.

Tarzan
 

HK4U

New member
Link Removed


If the lady in the article was on the phone for 30 minutes with 911 and we have been told it took the police 6 minutes after the call came in to arrive at the mall what was going on for the other 24 minutes?
 

Puppy

New member
Here is what the FBI think about mall security:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mall.security/index.html

This comment says it all!
"Should these private security guards be armed? "Absolutely not," said Greene. Greene said if a security officer were to pull a gun on an armed individual in a mall, it could result in "the gunfight at the 'OK corral,' and then we might have 23 people killed instead of eight."

Are you kidding me??

FBI or RETARD? :D Sounds like a ridiculous statement to me. So just sit around until you are killed or the dirt bag decides to kill himself. Is that what he advises for the Police also? "No Officer, don't shoot the BG; you might kill someone else while he is killing them."
 

Puppy

New member
Link Removed


If the lady in the article was on the phone for 30 minutes with 911 and we have been told it took the police 6 minutes after the call came in to arrive at the mall what was going on for the other 24 minutes?

They were probably discussing cookie recipes. :D
 

HK4U

New member
Statement

FBI or RETARD? :D Sounds like a ridiculous statement to me. So just sit around until you are killed or the dirt bag decides to kill himself. Is that what he advises for the Police also? "No Officer, don't shoot the BG; you might kill someone else while he is killing them."


It is unfortunate that many officers on the federal level have an elitest attitude. They think they are smarter and better trained than us sheeple.
 

revjen45

New member
I don't like malls, but at this time of year it's sometimes necessary to go there. When my wife and I went to the bookstore I was packing a 9mm with 2 extra mags (31 rds total) and two .38 snubs. Paranoid? anybody who isn't just isn't paying attention.
 

kwo51

New member
This is a child that fell through the cracks. They knew he had a problem and had been treated. He should have beem moniterd.
 

Unearthed

New member
More information is coming out regarding the tactical situation and the background of the shooter. Stay informed if you are going to try and discuss it on an open forum.

The first link presents a more coherent picture of the event; Note he was not shooting down on people from the balcony, but appears to have been inside the large department store on the third floor of the mall. Most of the fatalities were employees of the store.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mall.shooting.911/index.html

Mental instability background of the shooter.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/omaha.shooting/index.html

Link Removed

You can read under "Timeline" where it talks about him firing down from the 3rd floor balcony. Early reports stated victims were on the levels below. What is your obsession with this being an open forum and telling people what they should and shouldn't discuss?
 
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Big Bubba

New member
Mall Shooting

I think it would be appropiate for all the concealed permit holders that were in the mall at the time of the shooting, and had to leave their weapons either in their vehicles, or at home. Due to the mall being posted to get together and file a class action lawsuit, against the Mall company. On the basis they were left defenceless, and were denied protection per their 2nd amendment rights. Even if these "victims" were not successful, it might give some of these anti gun people something to think about.
 

ecocks

New member
Chill out

Link Removed

You can read under "Timeline" where it talks about him firing down from the 3rd floor balcony. Early reports stated victims were on the levels below. What is your obsession with this being an open forum and telling people what they should and shouldn't discuss?

Actually, I didn’t tell anyone what they could or couldn’t say. I commented it was early for Monday morning QB’ing which is my opinion. Then I said "stay informed" if you are going to post on an open forum and posted up some updated news. But hey, if being informed strikes you as unnecessary, then do what you want. After all, it is a free country and people are just as free to rush to conclusions and judgment as they are to state their opinions and reactions. Already the media is pointing out the errors from the first reports as to how he was dressed, how his hair was cut and so on. Still another poster is raising the question of the timing of the 911 calls. You have your Timeline comment yet seem unaware that six of the dead were employees of the same store and the other two fatalities were customers of that store. I have seen no story stating that anyone outside the Von Maur store was shot and only one witness stating that he apparently shot a guy on an escalator as he [victim] was heading down to the second floor. All the other stories that I personally have read talk about people in the women's "department," shoe "department," gift wrap "department" and that he opened fire in the customer service "department." The HR Manager states she watched him on the "store" security cameras until he was dead. So it doesn't really sound like a sniper on high ground shooting into a wide open atrium or mall hallway area to me. Then again, I have no idea how that store is laid out so I cannot really tell one way or the other. If you want to continue your comments, feel free to do so. I'm simply commentining that it IS an open forum, accessible by press, anti-gun trolls and others. Posting something on here is not the same thing as sitting around the coffee pot at the range or on your patio chatting with like-minded friends or ven having a debate with your favorte anti.
 

Unearthed

New member
Actually, I didn’t tell anyone what they could or couldn’t say. I commented it was early for Monday morning QB’ing which is my opinion. Then I said "stay informed" if you are going to post on an open forum and posted up some updated news. But hey, if being informed strikes you as unnecessary, then do what you want. After all, it is a free country and people are just as free to rush to conclusions and judgment as they are to state their opinions and reactions. Already the media is pointing out the errors from the first reports as to how he was dressed, how his hair was cut and so on. Still another poster is raising the question of the timing of the 911 calls. You have your Timeline comment yet seem unaware that six of the dead were employees of the same store and the other two fatalities were customers of that store. I have seen no story stating that anyone outside the Von Maur store was shot and only one witness stating that he apparently shot a guy on an escalator as he [victim] was heading down to the second floor. All the other stories that I personally have read talk about people in the women's "department," shoe "department," gift wrap "department" and that he opened fire in the customer service "department." The HR Manager states she watched him on the "store" security cameras until he was dead. So it doesn't really sound like a sniper on high ground shooting into a wide open atrium or mall hallway area to me. Then again, I have no idea how that store is laid out so I cannot really tell one way or the other. If you want to continue your comments, feel free to do so. I'm simply commentining that it IS an open forum, accessible by press, anti-gun trolls and others. Posting something on here is not the same thing as sitting around the coffee pot at the range or on your patio chatting with like-minded friends or ven having a debate with your favorte anti.

Nobody outside the Van Maur store was shot, but there was a cut-out in the middle of the store that created a square shaped balcony on the second and third floors.
capt3fbfc9b0c60f426a867d4ae1980ce1d.jpg


I'm very chill, by the way...I wasn't yelling at you or anything. But at the same time I think "Monday morning QB'ing" is a good thing. I like to go over these type situations in my head and think about what I would do if I was in one. It's very hard to train for these kinds of things unless you are in the military or LE (Or you pay for it) so the best I can do is go over and over it in my head.
 

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