Sheepdog attitude...pros vs. cons


IheartTedNugent

New member
My son downplays his role but show up for duty every day rain or shine. My other son answers calls all hours of the day or night and has dealt with structure fires and vehicle accidents in ways most of you will ever know.

God Bless you Festus
 

Providence Ranch

New member
I am really liking the responses here. Thank you all. Yes, it appears I did crack the can open on a discussion that has obviously taken place many times long before my arrival. (35th post...LMAO) I do see the distinction. Fetus, you make excellent sense. My thoughts are 99% in line with yours. The CCW does not elevate your level of authority, period. But it 100% should elevate your level of awareness and prompt you to a different hierarchy of decision-making when circumstances begin to sour. So granted, "sheepdog" is an inadequate analogy for that heightened level of awareness, with the dangerous spin that some will put on it. Again, its the attitude vs. Responsibility distinction. Great discussion!
 

Speedbump

New member
I think of a Sheepdog as one who would love to be able to use his CCW card in a real situation making
him/her a hero. A wanna-be type. The kind of guy that scares the hell out of me when I'm around him while he's showing everyone his piece, playing with it in a group of people and bragging about it. Those types can be
more dangerous than the bad guys sometimes.
 

FN1910

New member
The CCW does not elevate your level of authority, period. But it 100% should elevate your level of awareness and prompt you to a different hierarchy of decision-making when circumstances begin to sour.

I disagree, it should not have to prompt you to a new level as you should already be at that level. I agree tha if you have a CCW you should be very aware etc. but you actually should already be at that level and not have to have a CCW to get your there.
 

G50AE

Well-known member
I think of a Sheepdog as one who would love to be able to use his CCW card in a real situation making
him/her a hero. A wanna-be type. The kind of guy that scares the hell out of me when I'm around him while he's showing everyone his piece, playing with it in a group of people and bragging about it. Those types can be
more dangerous than the bad guys sometimes.

There's another term for that as well, Internet Rambos.
 

Grognard Gunny

New member
I couldn't resist the opportunity to make fun of sheepdogs and CCW Badges. :laugh:

Right with you, brother. The light side of what I feel is a clear and distinct case of "overzealousness". FANATICS of ANY sort are dangerous! Got enough on my plate trying to spot BGs without having to worry about my fellow "gunslingers" too.

GG
 

Grognard Gunny

New member
I can think of only ONE instance where I might assume the mantle of "sheepdog". In the case of total breakdown of civil authority and the rule of law. (The predators LOVE those sort of situations. See post hurricane "looters", for instance.)

I believe myself and my equally as community/civilization oriented wife would trot ourselves down to the Mayor's office and would insist on helping the local LEO "establishment" in whatever capacity necessary to preserve the civility and rule of law of the (MY) community.

Even at that, I would have to think about it a bit. I'm getting WAY to old to indulge in "combat commando" stuff. But "duty calls" when duty is calling. I swore a long time ago to defend our Nation and the Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic. As long as the Constitution reigns as the basis of our Law, I feel bound by that oath.

GG
 

Providence Ranch

New member
I see your point, FN1910, but have a follow up question. At some point in life, some people step out of the day to day, blurred, oblivious view of the world where all the bad stuff happens to other people, and they wake up. Not necessarily as a result of having violent crime enter their life, although all too often that is the turning point, but somehow, they realize that life isnt all pixie dust and magic bunnies, and the bad people DO know how to get to the good neighborhoods. And as a result, they become aware, enlightened if you will. Enough so that they make significant life adjustments. For some it involves installing security systems in their homes, others choose to learn some form of self defense. There are many possible choices. Bottom line, they have decided to no longer be...sheep! So here's my question...

If its not acceptable to call these awakened citizens sheepdogs, due to the other connotations of that term, then what (in this forum) is the proper term for such a person?
 

FN1910

New member
Maybe the term that you used of "awakend citizens" or "elightened citizens" or possibly just "the elightened". I follow your thought that people walk around daily thinking that nothing will happen to them or that the police will protect them and all of a sudden one day they wake up and realize the facts. Does the mere fact that they have gone to the trouble of getting a CCW or even just buying a gun cause them to wake up or did the fact that they woke up created then need for the CCW or gun? My point is that people should be aware of their surroundings and the evil out there along with the fact that we need to protect ourselves no matter what. Just purchasing a gun, carrying it with you and getting a CCW does not magically turn anyone into an elightened citizen or sheepdog. How many times have you heard the term, "I am going to get a gun for protection". I usually ask, "Are you going to make a suit of armor out of it"?

Too many people are running around with the false idea that a gun has some magical properties that all of a sudden gives them rights and responsibilities that without a gun they don't have. This is absolutely false. The term "Sheepdog" has become synonomous with just carrying a gun in too many places and for too many people. The passengers on Flight 93 took it upon themselves to be sheepdogs with no weapons of any kind. You read about people all the time that assume the role of sheepdog without any weapon, such as the janitor at a school that tackled the kid with a gun stopping his from shooting up the school.

I suppose that my point is that there is too much talk on this and other "gun" boards about the magic abilities of guns and all the talk about, "If only I had my gun" or "If only I had been there with my gun". What would they have done if they had been there without a gun? A gun does not suddenly transform someone into a sheepdog and we need to get over that. One does not need a gun to be a sheepdog and we need to top equating guns with sheepdogs. A baseball bat or a frying pan can be a very good weapon in time of need. If one claims that they need a gun to defend themselves or others and will run instead of help just because they do not have a gun then they are the sheep. A gun is just another tool in the arsenal of self-defense and has no magical properties to turn Internet Rambos or Mall Ninjas into sheepdogs. Being a sheepdog is a mindset that comes from the head and heart and if you need a gun to turn you into one then you will never be one but just another "goof with a gun".
 

the dark

New member
Another concern I have with maintaining a "Sheepdog" attitude (remember how Grossman defined that term - it had nothing to do with civilians per se - it had to do with a mindset that typified those who served, who stood on the walls) - is that it may distract one from the other important ways in which we can "defend" ourselves and our loved ones. That is, a "sheepdog" (again defaulting to Grossman), by its nature and by its mission, does not practice avoidance or de-escalation, it practices confrontation. For a civilian, such a strategy is likely to increase the danger to those you love who may be with you.

Don't get me wrong; my natural reaction is not avoidance or de-escalation, to meet challenge, to engage the predator. I am not saying it is easy. But I also have to acknowledge that it might not always be best and for some of us, while we were trained to be sheepdogs at one point and we continue to train to defend ourselves with violent action, the harder task is knowing when to "not be there".
 

Providence Ranch

New member
Ok, so.its becoming clear we have a few schools of thought here. But the one that scares ME the most is "yeah, I carry, but due to the potential for liability, sticky situations that might turn bad, no chance of being a hero, and all kinds of people labeling me a mall ninja, I will never ever even present weapon in public." Strange philosophy there.
 

festus

God Bless Our Troops!!!
A lot of the increased personal risk of litigation comes from the screwed up ideology of the liberal leftist leaning news and collegiate professorships that espouse this type of "Higher Learning" and a "I'm a victim" attitudes. It is unfortunate that the mindset has become I don't want to be sued.

The crux of the matter is that the law colleges have not taught the rule of law for over 40 years. They have been teaching case law and precedent. This one action has been the single largest detractor from constitutional law and the rule of law. It has allowed court arguments to be based on opinions that should not and would not ever fly in a rule of law court.

This does not stop me however from being a retired sheepdog. I have a God given right to my own personal safety, the safety of my family and the safety of those who cannot take care of themselves.

According to the famous quote,
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
— Edmund Burke

This is our legacy. we either crawl under a rock or we effect change daily by our actions and by our deeds...either way I do not want to stand in front of God on judgement day and not be able to explain why I allowed evil to claim another victim when I had the option of acting or doing nothing.

I still stand by my statement of the sheep dog being those who wear or have worn the uniform to serve their fellow man. I also firmly believe that:
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
— Robert A. Heinlein (Beyond This Horizon)

I fully support armed citizenry, sheep dogs, and men of honor. I will not be found in the presence of thuggery, lawless abandon or men of ill will towards their fellow man. This is how I was raised. This is how I am raising my boys. I challenge you to effect change the same way. It does not have to be a lethal confrontation to always speak up for what is right and to put lawlessness and tyranny in it's place.

Try these simple things
1. find your voice...speak out against what is wrong and offer a solution to make things better.
2. be aware of every thing that goes on around you...decide then and there what your next plan of action should be.
3. be the polite but firm voice of reason when issues arise...do not change your answer to go with the flow, but explain your answer and sway others to what is morally correct not just what is politically expedient. (I know it sounds like #1 but trust me it is different)
4. be prepared...it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it
5. be well educated...learn all you can concerning your local laws and codes and how they affect you. it will help in all aspects of the decision making process.
 

Boatswain2PA

New member
I'm a little surprised by what I'm reading here.

I don't know whether I fall into your particular definition of "sheepdog" or not, but here are my thoughts.

I CCW when I can, especially when I'm out with my kids or girlfriend.

If I (think) I see something bad happening, I get involved. Most of the time my involvement is simply getting my kids to safety and then watching the situation (is that couple arguing going to turn physical? That guy seems out of place in this environment....etc) until it resolves. I've called the police several times for various things...most of the times it turned out to be nothing, but then again I've testified in court for what I've witnessed as well.

I have also gotten involved to the point of simply walking by and making my presence known. Often times my presence (I'm a very large guy) can make someone straighten up, or clarify in my mind that it is a benign situation.

I have also caught bad-guys (teenagers in this case) stealing things from cars, and I've chased them 2 blocks before physically catching one of them.

I guess I am the type of guy who you would want around if you, your kids, or your wife was getting hassled by dirtballs, if your house was being broken into, or if your car was getting stolen. I'm even the type of guy who you would want to be around if your kids were at the high school football game and getting a little rowdy/rude with others...happened just Friday night and I told them to knock it off...they said "sorry sir" and then did. Yeah, I get involved. Why? Because I'm a man. I'm not a hero, and I'm not going to pull out my glock and start a body count (never even been close to pulling my CCW) unless my life, or someone elses life, is in imminent danger.

But, if you, your family, or anyone else needs help and I can provide that help, then I'll be there. My CCW is just like the fire extinguisher, first aid kit, rope, flashlight, and tire jack in my truck - - - a tool that I can take care of my family, myself, and anyone else with.

I guess I'm just a little disappointed with what I'm reading here because it seems that there are lot of guys out there who wouldn't get involved if my kids/girlfriend needed some help and I wasn't around.
 

NavyLCDR

New member
Ok, so.its becoming clear we have a few schools of thought here. But the one that scares ME the most is "yeah, I carry, but due to the potential for liability, sticky situations that might turn bad, no chance of being a hero, and all kinds of people labeling me a mall ninja, I will never ever even present weapon in public." Strange philosophy there.

There are some people that believe a gun will jump out of a holster all by itself and start killing innocent people with no human involvement whatsoever, and there are others who believe that the gun in the pocket will ward off evildoers all by itself with no human involvement whatsoever...
 

festus

God Bless Our Troops!!!
I'm a little surprised by what I'm reading here.

I don't know whether I fall into your particular definition of "sheepdog" or not, but here are my thoughts.

I CCW when I can, especially when I'm out with my kids or girlfriend.

If I (think) I see something bad happening, I get involved. Most of the time my involvement is simply getting my kids to safety and then watching the situation (is that couple arguing going to turn physical? That guy seems out of place in this environment....etc) until it resolves. I've called the police several times for various things...most of the times it turned out to be nothing, but then again I've testified in court for what I've witnessed as well.

I have also gotten involved to the point of simply walking by and making my presence known. Often times my presence (I'm a very large guy) can make someone straighten up, or clarify in my mind that it is a benign situation.

I have also caught bad-guys (teenagers in this case) stealing things from cars, and I've chased them 2 blocks before physically catching one of them.

I guess I am the type of guy who you would want around if you, your kids, or your wife was getting hassled by dirtballs, if your house was being broken into, or if your car was getting stolen. I'm even the type of guy who you would want to be around if your kids were at the high school football game and getting a little rowdy/rude with others...happened just Friday night and I told them to knock it off...they said "sorry sir" and then did. Yeah, I get involved. Why? Because I'm a man. I'm not a hero, and I'm not going to pull out my glock and start a body count (never even been close to pulling my CCW) unless my life, or someone elses life, is in imminent danger.

But, if you, your family, or anyone else needs help and I can provide that help, then I'll be there. My CCW is just like the fire extinguisher, first aid kit, rope, flashlight, and tire jack in my truck - - - a tool that I can take care of my family, myself, and anyone else with.

I guess I'm just a little disappointed with what I'm reading here because it seems that there are lot of guys out there who wouldn't get involved if my kids/girlfriend needed some help and I wasn't around.

You said a mouthful...
but you are correct!
 

kelcarry

New member
Hey Providence: You comment about "nothing more than armed victims" is, IMO, probably true of many people who CC. If there was one thing I did before I even purchased a firearm it was to look in the mirror, measure my own resolve and appreciate the fact that I would not hesitate to use my firearm if there was an imminent threat. Not only would I use it, but I would not have any thoughts about my "psychological" feelings after ward, which have been discussed in some threads. If you have a doubt, odds are your firearm will cause your own demise. As far as sheep and sheepdogs, everyone does what everyone thinks is right. Once again, Providence, your comments were right on.
 

caburian

New member
I know this is an old post, but since I came across it and I just wanted to add my .2 cents.

Sheepdog reference is only a teaching of responsibility.
I have seen a couple post previous of those calling themselves "TRUE SHEEPDOG" because they have served the military - not to disrespect your service to our country, but you are truly wrong with a claim like that to think you are above any other citizen.
Sheeps are the people who live their life unaware of the evil that surrounds them, while sheepdogs are those who lives among the sheeps but stand ready to protect their love ones should the wolves cross that fence.
 

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